Bazaar 500 Trader Limit - Should EQ follow UO's Example

[Arbrelax]

Well I see the string on scams regarding the booting of fellow traders in the bazaar has been locked (probably due to the increasing level of hostility in it :twisted: - and the fact that certain peeps were making what in the legal world are termed "statements against interest" regarding having taken actions that are bannable offences! :shock:

In the interest of sparking productive discourse on this topic I proffer the following - What about the Ultima Online trader system?

I've never personally played it so would appreciate any insights into it's usage and you can check out the details on UO's website but it basically works as follows:

You "hire" an NPC merchant (buy a contract that spawns the toon I think) and place him/her (granted in UO it is in a house you own or have access to but could be the bazaar in EQ). You then can load all your goods for sale on the Trader (avoids the use of friends for transfers). You can set the prices or let them price goods. They require a salary which has a fixed component per game day and a variable component based on the total value of the goods you are selling. I think they also take a commission on sales. The part I am unclear on is whether they remain while you are in the game (which would be GREAT - imagine being able to sell AND adventure at the same time), but in any case they DO remain when you log out (which I think would be a boon to the servers as would not have to handle the connections which peeps in trader mode currently require).

Responses to a similar post elsewhere indicate that UO does not have the vendor search function the Bazaar does. In UO location is therefore more important as peeps need to be able to consistently find a given vendor who sells what they want.

A final consideration is Democratization of the Bazaar! I have friends who do not enjoy the benefits of DSL so they are basically excluded from using the bazaar to sell (at least in a meaningful way) as they cannot keep their dial up phone line tied up to keep a mule online (heck some have to bail for phone calls during game play )

Any thoughts or other UO experiences?

[Cendorly]

Maybe there's something I'm missing but why can't Verant just increase the allowable number of traders in the bazaar? Maybe make it infinite or 1k players?

Another option is they can make a second bazaar zone. Kind of just knock out a wall near the SH zone, and add a hallway leading to an additional bazaar zone. Have the bazaar search feature pick up the information from "that" zone as well as the existing bazaar zone, so that nobody is left out or overlooked, but at least a second zone would increase the number of traders and alleviate some of the fierce competition going on.

A second zone may not be the best option, but first thing in the morning, with no coffee, it was the first thing that popped into my head. /shrug who knows, maybe it will spawn some other kind of idea or variation thereof.

[Mimoza]

yes, UO was good in that (except the lack of search function).

remember what happened when you did not pay your hired vendor (or he could not pay himself on the product of the trade)?

he just walked away, damping anything he had for sale on the ground, free for anyone to pick before it decays...

yes, UO was fun )

[Moor]

Maybe there's something I'm missing but why can't Verant just increase the allowable number of traders in the bazaar? Maybe make it infinite or 1k players?

Because nobody's PC would be able to handle 1000+ people in the Bazaar.

[Arbrelax]

Maybe there's something I'm missing but why can't Verant just increase the allowable number of traders in the bazaar? Maybe make it infinite or 1k players?

I think of course that is the "easiest" (at least most straight forward) solution, but I was wondering what people thought about the UO system. I kinda like the ability to be adventuring at the same time as I have a trader selling my goods

yes, UO was good in that (except the lack of search function).

remember what happened when you did not pay your hired vendor (or he could not pay himself on the product of the trade)?

he just walked away, damping anything he had for sale on the ground, free for anyone to pick before it decays...

yes, UO was fun )

HA! That would be funny - the masses revolt against the evil capitalists! Maybe Rougues would have a new way to boot traders - pickpocket their cash reserves used to pay salary and then cause a mass "walkout" of all the retail workers! :twisted:

But seriously, depending on the platinum salary cost of using these types of traders, if the search function could be retained, I'd use them in a heartbeat.

[Tobin Itharel]

I like the NPC trader idea. Here is how I would do it.

A new type of Trader's Satchel called a "Vendor's Satchel" that is LORE NODROP 100 weight

100 new NPC's are added to the back area of the bazaar. Each Vendor can sell from 8 different player's "Vendor's Satchel". These are placed along the walls.

That makes 800 players able to sell at one time up to 10 items. Each time you log in your "Vendor's Satchel" is placed at the "top of the list" and the oldest satchel is removed if over 800 are active. Your satchel is removed if empty from the list. Only ONE character on an account per server can have a satchel.

ONLY LoY players may have a "Vendor's Satchel". The satchel is kept in the LAST new bank slot in order to function. If a player opens the satchel in the bank it is removed from the vendors. Once the banker is closed the satchel would return for selling the items. The satchel would have 10 places in its special container window to set the item prices. Prices would only be set in plat without the option of gold/silver/coper.

5% of the cost of items sold by an NPC with a "Vendor's Satchel" is charged as a commission.

If you are in Trader Mode your satchel will not be in the NPC vendors.

What do you think? ... Do you have suggestion for this idea?

[andaerice]

I suppose I'll throw in my 2cp...

100 new NPC's are added to the back area of the bazaar. Each Vendor can sell from 8 different player's...

While I like the idea very much (especially for those slow-to-sell items), I can see a few problems with that right away.
- Eight 10-slot satchels is 80 items, and merchant windows can only hold 30. I could see people repeatedly logging to keep their items in the top slots
- Each of the 8 satchels could have the same item in it, but being sold for different prices. Confusing for players, and a difficult coding problem
- 800 satchel slots wouldn't be enough. There would be people across every level trying to sell things this way, from level 5 newbies selling their silks and pelts, to level 65 players selling PoP drops

What I could see is more like an addition of NPCs who work the same way off a commission or a set fee, but clicking on them opens a bazaar-like search window with the option to purchase. The items to purchase this way would work with the same vendor's satchel idea, so I guess it would end up more like a consignment shop.

Of course the problem with the bazaar in general is with EverQuest's rendering engine. The bandwidth there doesn't seem to be a problem, even with 500 traders on. To give an example, staring at the SH side wall would normally seem to be fast, but even when I'm doing that I sometimes have frame rates too frustratingly low. So I run back to the arena and do my searching there with very high frame rates and nearly instant searches (plus get some entertainment).

So what's the difference in these? While in the main bazaar area, even though you're staring at the wall for floor, the EQ engine is still rendering the 500 ogres practicing their interesting hygiene habits -even though you can't see them- that are within your "range." In the arena, they are not within your "range" so the engine does not render their rear-cleaning activity (among other things like spell effects). I realize that this is somewhat due to the ability to use a different F9 view, but it would seem that if I'm looking straight ahead, that only PCs/NPCs/others would be all I'm interested in seeing. I'd put up with some slight delay if I hit F9 for the engine to "catch up" with what it hasn't been rendering.

Sorry for the technical tangent there... ops:

[Draggar]

How about breaking the Bazaar up into 2 or 4 different zones?

Or , creating 3 'Bazaar" zones, People zone into an "entrance" from the Nexus and Shadowhaven, and have a choice of the 3 bazaars.

Better yet, be able to shop all 3 in that "entrance".

Sure, it won't be fun, zoning a lot, but that would increase the limit to 1500 (or what they want to set it as)....

Hmm, shop from one zone, access a merchant in that zone for his respective bazaar (Say there is Red, Green, and Blue Bazaars, then you have a Red, Green, and Blue merchant, respectivley).

Maybe even incorperate an auto-buy function from the entrance?

[brildayr]

bazaar trader solution - what do you think ?

Set the bazaar into several different rooms (such as the 6 trials rooms) with like 100 (200 maybe?) traders max in each room. Setup is very similar to the Trials/tribunal area in PoJ. So you have a central area that has NO traders in it, but has banks and vendors. Bazaar search functions work in the central area as well as each of the rooms. One more column would need to be added in the search function so you could tell which of the 6 or so rooms your item/trader is in to buy.

Also make it possible to have two or more zones set up like this on the servers that have that many traders if needed. Of course have the bazaar search functions work and catch both/all of the bazaar zones.

This would eliminate the lag associated with the bazaar and possibly up the number of people/traders allowable/playable in the zone.

[kiztent]

Multiple bazaar zones is bad bad bad.

I kind of like the idea of having merchants who can handle a single 10 slot bag, but I need to keep my trader (who pretty much always has 78 slots full) thanks.

[Laureana]

Re: bazaar trader solution - what do you think ?

Set the bazaar into several different rooms (such as the 6 trials rooms) with like 100 (200 maybe?) traders max in each room. Setup is very similar to the Trials/tribunal area in PoJ. So you have a central area that has NO traders in it, but has banks and vendors. Bazaar search functions work in the central area as well as each of the rooms. One more column would need to be added in the search function so you could tell which of the 6 or so rooms your item/trader is in to buy.

I like this idea. The central area with the banks and merchants should be pretty lag free assuming they create the rooms with walls that block the traders from your 'range' so your not loading them all up like you are now. If each room was a different color or had a number painted on the door leading into it they could make the trader names appear in the color that matches the room they are in on the bazaar search or add a room number column, then you would be able to search lag free in the central area and only have to enter the room that had the trader you wanted in it. Sounds like a good way to increase the number of traders to me

[drael]

I like the idea of several rooms off one central 'search' area. Color coding sounds great it would reduce the amount of hunting I do in lag. They might even restrict auction, etc. to the zone the person is in - or have one zone only that auction and random rolls are allow in. Those who love to advertise would be satisfied, those who listen to ads would be happy and i would be delerious with joy in my quiet zone, lol.

[Quinner Sparrowhawk]

I like the NPC trader idea. It could do a great deal to reduce lag since the rendering could be pre-set. So what if it would charge a commission or a daily fee, especially if it would stay on at all times. Of course, it would be fine with me if the NPC was only present while I was logged on.

The bazaar could even be set up for each player to have a guaranteed NPC Trader in a prearranged slot, with prime locations costing more. There could even be multiple bazaar zones. While some players might object to multiple zones, a search function would make this irrelevent. I would like to see the bazaar screen able to be called up in any zone.

[Serill]

Personally, I think that the Bazaar should just crash/repop if there is ~500 traders on for more than a couple hours. This puts most people on even footing, no time zone has an advantage of getting into trader mode first since the zone could crash anytime, and people on dial up don't have to worry about cablemodem/dsl people being on all the time. But the best thing I like is you don't have to constantly deal with the people who always undercut by 1pp, cause they undercut then go off to work or whatever and get kicked, and you don't have to play that stupid game with them of lowering prices constantly for at least a few hours!

I'd much rather have them work on other bazaar features, like a drop down menu that remember the last 10 things you searched for so you can easily search for them again, or a way to teleport directly to the vendor you want without running around the laggy bizarre trying to find some gnome that 50 trolls decided to park their trader in front of, only to find they got bumped up to the ceiling somehow and you can't reach them.

If there were multiple bazaars Id like them split somehow like in one you can only sell things over 300pp and in another only things over 3000pp or something.. so us rich folk can shop in peace in a high class bazaar... then as a trader you'd have to decide where you wanna be.. do you wanna sell the 500 leather padding you got for 25pp or sit in the high end bazaar and try to sell your 20k sword!!

[KyrosKrane]

Personally, I think that the Bazaar should just crash/repop if there is ~500 traders on for more than a couple hours. This puts most people on even footing, no time zone has an advantage of getting into trader mode first since the zone could crash anytime, and people on dial up don't have to worry about cablemodem/dsl people being on all the time.

ABSOLUTELY OUT OF THE QUESTION. Period.

Please remember that not everyone has easy or cheap access to the Internet. I don't know about you, but I pay for my Internet access by the hour. When I'm playing EQ, I pay about US $0.50 an hour just to be online. When I download my email, I'm paying that same hourly fee. When I browse the Web -- yup, there's that cash draining out of my pocket again. When I set up my bazaar mule, I'm paying good cash -- real life money, not in-game plat -- for that privilege. I'm willing to spend that cash for the benefits I gain -- playtime when I'm on, or in-game plat from Bazaar sales when I walk away from the PC.

Booting me out of the game causes me to waste my time and my money. It's bad enough when I leave my bazaar trader on overnight and come back in the morning to find I'd been booted 15 minutes after I went to bed because the zone crashed. Now you're suggesting that the zone be reset on purpose?

In addition, each and every player on EQ has at least one account for which they're paying their $13 or so a month to Sony. As far as Sony is concerned, we all have an equal "right" -- such as it is -- to use the Bazaar, as buyers or as sellers. Why should they get involved in disputes over who has the "right" to stay online, just because one person has been selling for a long time and another wants a crack at the buyers? Heck, arguably, people with full-time bazaar mules are Sony's best friends -- they're more likely to have multiple accounts to hold spare gear, and are more "valuable" players in that they support the community aspects and allow Sony to claim more active accounts.

Real life money aside, your proposed system still has inherent unfairness in it.

For the sake of argument, let's say they did implement your system. The bazaar has been at 500 traders for the last two hours. Not knowing this, I wander into the bazaar, set up my trader, and luckily get a spot just as another trader quits. I leave my trader and go out for the evening. Five minutes later, the bazaar is reset. How is this fairer than the current system? I've had no more than five minutes as a vendor!

But the best thing I like is you don't have to constantly deal with the people who always undercut by 1pp, cause they undercut then go off to work or whatever and get kicked, and you don't have to play that stupid game with them of lowering prices constantly for at least a few hours!

I'm afraid that's completely wrong. Either they are actively undercutting you, in which case they're sitting at the PC checking prices every few minutes and updating theirs, or they're passively undercutting, in which case they update their price once and wander away from the PC.

If they are actively undercutting you, then talk to them! Changing prices indicates someone is behind the keyboard fiddling with costs and running searches. Explain to them why the undercutting is bad.

On the other hand, if they're passively undercutting, then there's no "game" to play -- either you stick with your own price, or you match theirs, or you get to undercut them for the period they are away from the PC.

Either way, undercutting is a part of the bazaar system. It simply will not go away, short of some higher authority (read: Sony) mandating a fixed price for each and every item in the game, and that's not going to happen. If by some dark miracle it does, then I suspect folks will just go back to auctioning in East Commons.

Suggesting that people be kicked just so you can be rid of an undercutter is ... I'm at a loss for words.

I'd much rather have them work on other bazaar features, like a drop down menu that remember the last 10 things you searched for so you can easily search for them again, or a way to teleport directly to the vendor you want without running around the laggy bizarre trying to find some gnome that 50 trolls decided to park their trader in front of, only to find they got bumped up to the ceiling somehow and you can't reach them.

On this, we're in total agreement. A search history would be amazingly useful, especially for folks like me who often search for the same components. A teleport system would also be nice, but I have a better idea.

My ideal bazaar system would eliminate the trader avatars entirely. In the bazaar search window, you can currently right-click to face your chosen trader. Instead, make it so that you can right-click a trader's name in the search window and open that trader's sales window from anywhere in the bazaar! This solves several problems.

First, there is no longer incentive to bunch up at the banks. People don't need to run to you any more, so the perceived advantage of being close to the banks is nullified.

Second, it completely eliminates the issue of ogres and trolls sitting on gnomes to hide them. Who cares? If I want something from a gnome trader, I just open his sales window from anywhere in the bazaar. I don't need to physically click on that trader's avatar any more.

Third, the issue of suddenly ending up on top of a pillar again becomes moot, as proximity between buyer and seller no longer holds.

Fourth, it can help remove lag. Since traders no longer need a physical presence in the bazaar (i.e., a visible avatar), do away with the avatars completely. When you enter trader mode, you become invisible to the rest of the world. The only way to reach you is through the bazaar search window. That will hugely reduce the video lag associated with the bazaar. I realize this is a controvertial aspect, but think about it for a bit.

If there were multiple bazaars Id like them split somehow like in one you can only sell things over 300pp and in another only things over 3000pp or something.. so us rich folk can shop in peace in a high class bazaar... then as a trader you'd have to decide where you wanna be.. do you wanna sell the 500 leather padding you got for 25pp or sit in the high end bazaar and try to sell your 20k sword!!

Again, I shouldn't be forced to make this choice. I want to sell both items. Why should I be forced to choose when a better solution is available that eliminates the root cause in the first place? And what about borderline items? Let's say your cutoff is 300pp for the "cheapie" bazaar. I have an item with a typical price exactly at that cutoff price. Do I price it at 301pp in an attempt to be lowest in the "higher" bazaar, or try to compete with other traders in the "low" bazaar? Again, this is not a choice I should have to make. I price my items as I wish, and the buyers choose whether to pay that cost or not.

I apologize if my response seems antagonistic, but suggestions like this that hit folks like me in the pocketbook -- when an easier, better solution is available through game code! -- just sound totally wrong.