Comparing Cultural to Other Armor Sets

[Aaneras]

I'd like to propose that we work together here to come up with an actual comparison of cultural armor against other metrics; this is directly relevant to tradeskillers. I believe that the comparisons presented to the developers are skewed in important aspects and discount very relevant balance points. In particular, actual gear choices involve:

Base stats (HP, MA, AC)
Resists
Mod2s (Stun resist, avoidance, etc.)
Focus effects (crucial for priests and casters)
Augments and power sources

One also has to factor in the difficulty involved in obtaining items. This includes raid vs. group, but also obtaining components for things like tradeskills. I find it simply astonishing that the comparisons being performed assume

1) Only base stats matter - even obvious things like power sources and the difference between slot 7 and slot 8 are irrelevant;

2) Cultural gear that is currently running 1 million plat per slot is trivially available to all (or that 24 rare drops from tier 3+ SoF are easily obtained, accounting for irreducible failure);

3) Obtaining 8 raid augments from content that is current for the median raider is trivial. Note that this represents the fruits of roughly 6 months of raiding for typical raid loot award policies.

4) SoF group gear is omitted from comparisons, as is SoF raid gear.

When all of these factors are accounted for, a very different pattern emerges than the one that the Solteris raiders would like to present. I'll lay out the arguments over the next few posts, and would appreciate quantitative feedback.

[Aldier]

I agree that there are a lot of much better type 8 augments than type 7, but I would omit this from the comparison because there are a lot of good augments that are both.

Also, the cultural armor (armor + symbol) is a group armor set. So it should be compared with group armor sets. However, the cultural armor sets (armor + symbol + seal) needs to be compared with raid armor sets. In this comparison, I guess you could bring in the slot 7 vs slot 8 argument, but I would rather see the cultural armor stay as a group level armor set with the option of a raid obtained augment added than to lose some of the power of the cultural armor/symbol to balance around a slot 8 augment replacing the slot 7 on it.

This does lead to the other argument that has been made, and is for a different thread, that slot 7 and 8 augments should all be combined as the distinctions between them have blurred back and forth over several expansions.

[Aaneras]

Balance assumptions for power sources and augments

In order to fairly compare different sets one needs to properly balance for all of the known effects, and in particular for the advantages of raid gear.

Slot 7 augments are typically 60 hp/ma/en or less. Demiplane slot 8 augs are 110 hp/ma; TSS are 130 hp/ma. I don't know the total possible through Solteris augs or SoF augs, so for augments I'll assume:

Slot 7 - 60 hp/ma
Slot 8 Demi 110 hp/ma
Slot 8 TSS+ 130 hp/ma

For power sources, as noted by Kyros, it's fair to assume that raiders have "normal" power sources at a 50 hp/ma level for infusible raid gear; I'd assign 30 hp/ma for light orbs for infusible group gear.

Note that this already shifts the relative comparisons of gear sets substantially (by 130 hp/ma per slot for TSS+ armor.) I think it shifts things even more for SoF gear, but I'll need more information for that.

[Aaneras]

Focus Effects

Focus effects are the single most important ingredient for casters and priests. If the raid augments in cultural armor are weakened there is a severe balance issue between melee and caster/priest. For important effects like healing, damage, etc. and accounting for 5% focus degradation/level the relative focus effects at level 80 are:

Last Blood - 25% (50% base at 70)
Demiplane - 36% (60% base at 72)
TSS - 49% (65% base at 75)
Solteris - 55% (65% base at 77)
SoF group - 35%, 40%, 45% at tiers 2,3,4 respectively.
SoF raid - 60%,65%,70%,75% at tiers 1,2,3,4.

Last bloods are substantially worse than even SoF group; base SoF group is comparable to Demiplane visible and can be upgraded to be substantially better than Demiplane visible.

This is an important balancing point, especially since last bloods drop in demiplane level content.

[Aaneras]

I agree that there are a lot of much better type 8 augments than type 7, but I would omit this from the comparison because there are a lot of good augments that are both.

Also, the cultural armor (armor + symbol) is a group armor set. So it should be compared with group armor sets. However, the cultural armor sets (armor + symbol + seal) needs to be compared with raid armor sets. In this comparison, I guess you could bring in the slot 7 vs slot 8 argument, but I would rather see the cultural armor stay as a group level armor set with the option of a raid obtained augment added than to lose some of the power of the cultural armor/symbol to balance around a slot 8 augment replacing the slot 7 on it.

This does lead to the other argument that has been made, and is for a different thread, that slot 7 and 8 augments should all be combined as the distinctions between them have blurred back and forth over several expansions.

I see your point - if you were an AC junkie, for instance, you'd say the really nifty augments are group level. However, if you want to use one front (like HP) to argue for crippling an armor set you have to compare armor that is optimised for the thing that you are measuring. Fair comparsons of gear sets should include how they would look as used rather than bare. It's relevant, for example, that Demiplane armor with Demiplane augments really does gain 50 HP/MA over Cultural LB armor with group augments. It's also relevant that I have the option to boost TBS and later gear (group and raid) with power sources, and that these options are missing for earlier armor sets. I certainly factor these things into comparisons when I'm deciding on gear.

[Aaneras]

Base Stats of various Sets

There is a nice source comparing various armor sets for silk classes:

http://sof.fuzzywuzzy.de/armor.php?armor=0

I'd appreciate comparable info for plate,chain,leather.

In addition to the above, one should include:
18 hp or ma per heroic stat point in SoF gear
If we do this, assign 60 hp/ma to slot 7, 110 hp/ma to demi slot 8, 130 hp/ma to tss+slot 8, 30 hp/ma to group infusible, 50 hp/ma to raid infusible, we get the following:

70 cultural +LB: 3200 HP/MA (400/slot)
75 cultural +LB: 4480 HP/MA (560/slot)
80 cultural+LB: 5578 HP/MA (697/slot)

The top is right now; the middle adds a 75 symbol; the bottom represents a substantial increase in difficulty to obtain or cost, at the tune of 750,000 plat/slot for supplies or 1 million plat/slot crafted and bought.

Let's compare this to group gear, starting with TBS (Praet).

TBS group (Praet): 2850 HP/MA (356/slot)
SoF group tier 2: 3523 HP/MA (440/slot)
SoF group tier 3: 4417 HP/MA (565/slot)
SoF group tier 4: 5496 HP/MA (687/slot)

SoF group tier 3 involves getting tradeable (or groupable in tier 2) items and adding drops from tier 3 bosses in SoF. I'd be hard pressed to argue that it is "harder" than getting 8 raid drops and 24 exquisite spinner/marrow or porous loam.

By comparison, raid sets look like:

Demiplane: 3700 (463/slot)
TSS: 4745 (593/slot)
Solteris: 5691 (711/slot) - probably underestimated
SoF tier 1: 5870 (734/slot) - probably underestimated
SoF tier 2: 6136 (767/slot) - probably underestimated
SoF tier 3: 7985 (998/slot) - probably underestimated
SoF tier 4: 8959 (1120/slot) - probably underestimated

Note that the cultural is sane with respect to group armor; group armor leaves DP/TSS in the dust; and both are approaching Solteris. Rather different than we've seen, and I haven't included anything more than a 130 HP augment in Solteris or SoF raid gear.

[Aldier]

I see your point - if you were an AC junkie, for instance, you'd say the really nifty augments are group level. However, if you want to use one front (like HP) to argue for crippling an armor set you have to compare armor that is optimised for the thing that you are measuring. Fair comparsons of gear sets should include how they would look as used rather than bare. It's relevant, for example, that Demiplane armor with Demiplane augments really does gain 50 HP/MA over Cultural LB armor with group augments. It's also relevant that I have the option to boost TBS and later gear (group and raid) with power sources, and that these options are missing for earlier armor sets. I certainly factor these things into comparisons when I'm deciding on gear.

I agree with you that power sources should be included in any discussion involving the stats of TBS (and some SoF) armor.

If I am a tank (I do box a warrior on occassion), the typical ratio is 1ac = 6hp or hp if you are near the top end of ac ranges but I think with SoF, 1:6 is the correct amount until you are well over 4k. As such, a 31ac increase is worth 150-180hp to a warrior (99ac on Elaborate plate bp to 130ac on Elegant plate bp). That increase is much more important to me as a tank than the hp increase. While hp are a more universally recognized stat to balance players against, and is probably the best for illustrating your point, I am simply stating that there are other stats that would also be of interest to certain people. For AC augments, I am not an expert on them, but there are MANY that are type 7/8 and some that are only 7 and some that are only 8. I do not know the balance between the "good" ac augments as far as being 7 vs 8. I think the argument that tanks are making against the nerf to LB/Serpent/Sunshard augments is that the new augments (serpent, sunshard, and faycite) received NO increase in AC over last blood augs and this was the balance them out because LB augs had more ac than the developers wanted (after the fact). Now on top of not GAINING ac on the new augments, they are going to NERF the ac on the older ones. AC/Hp I believe were the main stats that were argued as to why the cultural was overpowered and needed a nerf.

The "cultural is balanced and stats as intended" comments from developers centered around the cultural armor as an entire piece of armor, stats, mod2s, focus. Now the nerf is aimed at the ac/hp and does not properly account for these OTHER factors. To a tank, the focus effects are worthless. Does not matter whether its a faycite aug or a last blood aug. Most all of the focus effects melee can use, are obtainable on OTHER pieces of armor. To a caster, the ac is nearly useless and the focus effect is of much more importance.

I would argue that type 12 augments are balanced currently for casters but not for melee and it is the melee side of the argument that the "elitist" raiders have focued on and gotten the developers to agree to nerf. As a result, not only do the mid-tier tanks/melee get nerfed (arguably from overpowered to balanced) but the casters/priests get nerfed from balanced to underpowered.

[KyrosKrane]

I pulled some interesting numbers off Alla's today. I'd like to see what folks think about them.

I mentioned elsewhere that power sources are a little odd. In the end, I found a group power source that's easy to obtain and is useful for comparing stats. A Misty Energeian Elemental Orb will provide maybe 6AC and 50hp, plus stats, to armor with 75 purity. This is a group-obtained orb that costs only 20 orum to purchase. That's less than what each player makes in a single TBS group mission. Anyone wearing TBS raid armors can blow through one in maybe a half hour. Yes, it's drainable, but for anyone in TBS raid gear, it's trivial to obtain a new one -- not to mention that orum can be bought in the bazaar. In short, it's a realistic and sustainable boost. I think it's a fair benchmark to use for infusible armors. For casters, a comparable power source is the Misty Energeian Light Orb, which provides 2AC 28hp/mana at 50 purity, or about 3AC 42hp/mana at 75 purity.

So, let's compare some armor. Here are some items already on Alla's:

Plate:
Martial Terrasteel Breastplate -- 158AC 565hp + 4AC 37hp from PS (SoF T4, WAR only)
Chromasteel Breastplate of the Dream -- 159AC 555hp + 4AC 37hp from PS (SoF T4, BRD only)

Compare to:
Rugged Energeiac Plate Breastplate -- 172AC 575hp + 6AC 50hp from PS (Solteris WAR BP)
Singing Energeiac Plate Breastplate -- 172AC 575hp + 6AC 50hp from PS (Solteris BRD BP)
Atathus` Warfire Breastplate -- 156AC 480hp (TSS WAR BP)
Osh`vir`s Dreamponder Breastplate -- 156AC 480hp (TSS BRD BP)
Elegant (80) + Sublime (80) + Last Blood (current) -- 175AC 620hp (plate classes)
Elegant (80) + Sublime (80) (current) -- 130AC 410hp (plate classes)


Chain:
Martial Chromalinked Coat -- 136AC 550hp + 4AC 37hp from PS (SoF T4, ROG only)

Compare to:
Shrouded Energeiac Chain Coat -- 150AC 575hp + 6AC 50hp from PS (Solteris ROG BP)
Draton`ra`s Deadkeeper Coat -- 129AC 475hp (TSS ROG BP)
Elegant (80) + Sublime (80) + Last Blood (current) -- 155AC 620hp (chain classes)
Elegant (80) + Sublime (80) (current) -- 115AC 410hp (chain classes)


Leather:
Purified Tremorhide Tunic -- 111AC 545hp + 4AC 37hp from PS (SoF T4, MNK only)

Compare to:
Hardened Energeiac Leather Tunic -- 89AC 575hp + 6AC 50hp from PS (Solteris MNK BP)
Draton`ra`s Deadkeeper Coat -- 76AC 475hp (TSS MNK BP)
Elegant (80) + Sublime (80) + Last Blood (current) -- 136AC 620hp (leather classes)
Elegant (80) + Sublime (80) (current) -- 91AC 410hp (leather classes)


Silk:
Intense Kaleidosilk Robe -- 89AC 520hp 570mana + 2AC 28hp/mana from PS (SoF T4 group, WIZ only)
Commanding Firesilk Robe -- 87AC 505hp 545mana + 2AC 28hp/mana from PS (SoF T4 group, MAG only)

Compare to:
Phased Energeiac Silk Robe -- 62AC 575hp 575mana + 3AC 42hp/mana from PS (Solteris MAG BP)
Draton`ra`s Deadkeeper Coat -- 54AC 440hp 480mana (TSS MAG BP)
Elegant (80) + Sublime (80) + Last Blood (current) -- 116AC 620hp (Silk classes)
Elegant (80) + Sublime (80) -- 71AC 410hp (Silk classes)

[KyrosKrane]

I just updated the post above to include TSS armors and fix some minor booboos.

Given this info, I feel very strongly that 80 cultural with a Last Blood should be at least comparable to the groupable armors. Otherwise, a raid dropped augment is providing less of an upgrade than a single tier in SoF group gear, which is absurd. And don't forget, the cultural armors still have the weaker focuses; the groupable/TBS armors have additional aug slots that can further increase the armor's power, which cultural lacks; AND the dropped armors (both group and raid) have click effects that cultural cannot even begin to match.

I do think the current implementation of cultural + Last Blood is too strong. However, the needed reduction in power isn't all that huge.

[Clix]

The mod 2's on the exalted and sublime are lacking. If I could plan a "fix" for the cultural armor as it stands, it would be this. Make the armor more attractive alone. Split the hp evenly between the 75 armor/75 symbol and the 80 armor/80 symbol. Put ALL mod 2's (after increasing them) on the Armor and not the symbol. People at high end place more emphasis on mod 2's than most believe. Moving the mod 2's and spliting the hp on the armor will really make people think about which part to upgrade. The symbol will still be desireable for the stat/hp boost. The resists on the base armor should also be much higher.

I did a comparison on the eqboards comparing elegant/exalted armor to praetorian gear purchased with orum from the katta castrum vendors. When focus effects, mod 2's (especially avoidance) are taken into account, the cultural gear isn't an upgrade at all. The modest gains in ac/hp do not make up for everything that is lost.

There is a void in type 12 augments available to non raiders. This alone places cultural armor in the "don't bother" category for everyone but players that have raid augs available or those that don't know what else is available. Allow the focus effects to scale up the same as they do on the non visible armor in SoF. You will have to get with Merloc to see what he did with scaling the focii. I would ask that a group type 12 augment be made available before tier 4 in SoF. Allow us to have some hp/mana/end and a focus effect. Make this armor worth the effort tradeskillers have put into getting the skill to make it.The group type 12's should NOT require anything as involved as a AAAA if the benefits are less than a bazu augment. I believe that you should use praetorian armor as a base to work from as far as ac/hp and mod 2's focus. Level 75 and 80 armor should only go up from there.

They venom on the eqlive boards over this subject is too much for me to handle right now. I am one of Ngreths biggest defenders over there. I think you guys did a great job with the expansion. Thanks for entertaining our ideas.

Clix