Questions Regarding New Cultural Recipes

[KyrosKrane]

Yup, you need 275 to see the elaborate books, and I've heard 200 to see the Intricate books.

[Xislaben]

Yup, you need 275 to see the elaborate books, and I've heard 200 to see the Intricate books.

Yeah why do that, there's no reason to do this other than to annoy players or to force a progression assuming you remove the experimenting on those, which is again annoying.

I figured out how to make the Superb templates (next most expensive filament over the intricate templates), but I have to experiment to get the combine recorded, which means more inventory management. And that may not even be allowed later?

Even though the base trivial is much higher than a say 270 skill, the availability of the dropped combines is what really counts here. I'd much rather do maybe 3-5x more combines of things I can get drops for easily than stuff I have to actively farm.

Fine silk isn't in large quantities (or priced well) in the baz, but Superb silk drops all the time in my normal haunts.

[Aldier]

Template recipes used for skilling up are learnable through experimentation.


Armor recipes are not learnable and currently, through a bug, are attemptable in experiment mode but do not learn the recipes.

If you are actively seeking to make elaborate armor, then you can make ANY level templates to raise your skills to what has been set as the mark needed to get the Elaborate recipe book.

[Leonis]

Master Barkham (sp?) or the Arms Historian (I don't remember his full name, but the guy that has the other cultural stuff) would be the logical places for smithing-related materials.

Tailoring - I don't remember the gal's name but the one that's upstairs by the cultural loom, or I think there might be another tailoring vender next to her.


What ticks ME off is that my dorf smith is 274 UNMODDED skill. He can't get the Elaborate books even though he's been MAKING the bloody stuff for over a year now (back to well before it was still Grandmaster). His MODDED skill puts him at something like 98% chance of success on the new trivials for the wrist pieces (limited by the automatic 5% minimum fail on any combine you're not at or above trivial on) - yet HE CAN'T EVEN SEE THE ****ED BOOKS TO BE ABLE TO KEEP MAKING THE STUFF.

THAT is totally bogus BS. I can see limiting the books when you're like 10 or 15% chance on the final combine stuff - BUT HE ALSO CAN'T SEE THE ****ED COBALT LEVEL BOOK TO DO SKILLUPS ON - which is absolutely STUPID for something that is supposedly INTENDED as a skillup path. The ORE/SILK/HIDE books should not be level limited at ALL.

[Xislaben]

then you can make ANY level templates to raise your skills to what has been set as the mark needed to get the Elaborate recipe book.

What I and a few others are saying is that it's stupid/mean that we have to go through this when the books could simply be made available on vendors for all skill levels.

[Aldier]

The purpose of the templates not used for armor was to create a skill up path all the way through to 300.

For those whining they cannot see the books to make the templates, just go learn the recipes like we always did. So you are not being spoonfed the recipes and you have to /gasp...experiment once... to learn the recipe. I understand the frustrations about the armor books. I am in the same boat with the armor books. But the templates are no different than every other tradeskill combine prior to these.

For Leonis, Tungsten Ore works all the way to 300+ as well. Cobalt Ore combines are mid 300s trivials. You can still currently make the Elaborate armor through experimentation mode, you should remember how to do that, it is like it was before the tradeskill UI. Get 1 more skill up point and you can get your books.

Unless Ngreth made all the books open to all skill levels, there would always be those few people 1 or 2 points under the "magic number" that would complain they can't see the books.

[Xislaben]

Unless Ngreth made all the books open to all skill levels, there would always be those few people 1 or 2 points under the "magic number" that would complain they can't see the books.

What would be so bad about that?

It's not that it's overly burdensome to go back to, as you note, the way things were before the UI. It's that there doesn't appear to be any logic for restricting the vendor items by skill level, other than to perhaps flex a relatively new code muscle. I doubt Ngreth really intended it to be mean (though it is!) :P

[melkorr]

It's that there doesn't appear to be any logic for restricting the vendor items by skill level, other than to perhaps flex a relatively new code muscle.

The point is that someone with 100 skill in smithing should not have the expertise to comprehend the recipe for the best smithed armor in the game. Before, someone with relatively low skill and a large bank could dump some plat down, and crank out some combines to get their set of GM armor/symbols. Now, you don't get the reward without putting down the effort. When my main had 200 smithing/tailoring, he could see up to the Intricate/Sacred level in both templates and final armor. Those trivial very high, something like 280-290 I believe. So theres no problem having available skillup paths if you don't qualify for the next tier up yet. To say they only put this in to "flex a relatively new code muscle" is foolish. There have been numerous reasons cited, and even if you couldn't experiment to learn the recipes, I would still agree with having a skill level requirement to see the books.

[Bobaten]

I think the point was to somewhat counter the effect that masteries had for people who used them as a replacement for skill ups rather than as an augment to skill ups. To make the armor, you need skill ups. Mastery gives you a better chance of making the armor once you have the skill ups. Before the change, someone with 250 skill and mastery 3 had the same chance to make Elaborate armor as someone with 300 skill, and the person with 300 skill got no benefit from mastery. Now the person with 250 skill has no chance (or wouldn't if the experiment mode was properly blocked). The person with 275 skill has the the same chance they did before (and if they have mastery a better chance than before). And the person with 300 skill has a better chance than before, and mastery/trophy takes their chance even higher.

Most of this will be irrelevant in a month anyhow. New armor will probably have much higher trivials, and the success chance at 250-275 would be prohibitively low so you will need to skill up anyhow. In addition the market will probably decline for Elaborate so the loss of the ability to make it won't be as big of a deal.

[Kemie Dreamshadow]

I agree there's too much whining about this. There's a section of this board for rants, and in my opinion that's what we're seeing in some of these posts.

Skilling up smithing and tailoring is far easier, and more "fair" in many respects, with these changes. And these recipes are by no means the only recipes that will allow skillups.

[Ngreth Thergn]

And I have said it before, and will say it again.

We put those restrictions there to put a value on SKILL, not just "luck", and not an arbitrary spending of AA points and or a special piece of gear. (and the best you could get at skill is 274 89% (with AA and one of the "rarish" 15% drops) which admittedly is a good chance... but not the 98% quoted... though that could have been a trans-positional error)

And you can still do the combine, you just have to experiment until you can buy the book to fully "learn" it. I may or may not leave it this way when the bug is fixed that allows you to make the combine at all. I may just leave it that you cannot learn it without the book, but you can make it the hard way if you are stubborn and continue with luck.

If you are just going by luck to make an item, you do not learn as much as if you are properly skilled and informed when you get taught how to do it. I know this from my own college experience. I breezed through a year of classes without learning things, just being good at taking tests... then got to a place where even being good and lucky at taking tests no longer did me any good because I did not know the base materials needed for this next step. This is similar to that and just enforcing that you know the "base" before you continue.

[Xislaben]

The point is that someone with 100 skill in smithing should not have the expertise to comprehend the recipe for the best smithed armor in the game. Before, someone with relatively low skill and a large bank could dump some plat down, and crank out some combines to get their set of GM armor/symbols. Now, you don't get the reward without putting down the effort. When my main had 200 smithing/tailoring, he could see up to the Intricate/Sacred level in both templates and final armor. Those trivial very high, something like 280-290 I believe. So theres no problem having available skillup paths if you don't qualify for the next tier up yet. To say they only put this in to "flex a relatively new code muscle" is foolish. There have been numerous reasons cited, and even if you couldn't experiment to learn the recipes, I would still agree with having a skill level requirement to see the books.

Lore/RP nonsense justifications aside, the risk already exists and is factored into the system by lower chances of success when making high triv combines with low skill. Of course if you only want 1 end result and do not care how many times you make the combine with low success rates, you will eventually get it. If the intent is to prevent the combine as I think Ngreth meant, then a solution already exists for this. You can set a min skill requirement on the combine itself as has been done in the past with items like Muramite Armor combines.

Afaik vendors have never before been used to prevent a player from seeing items based on their skill levels or races, so I believe it's a new code trick.

Availability of drops at the various skill levels is another argument heh.

If you are just going by luck to make an item, you do not learn as much as if you are properly skilled and informed when you get taught how to do it. I know this from my own college experience. I breezed through a year of classes without learning things, just being good at taking tests... then got to a place where even being good and lucky at taking tests no longer did me any good because I did not know the base materials needed for this next step. This is similar to that and just enforcing that you know the "base" before you continue.

The less you know the more you can learn. ><

If you can take the same test without studying over and over again every 3 seconds, and it's just multiple choice, eventually you may get a result you like. You need be neither good (high skill) nor lucky (decent success chance), just persistent.

[Aldier]

Lore/RP nonsense justifications aside, the risk already exists and is factored into the system by lower chances of success when making high triv combines with low skill. Of course if you only want 1 end result and do not care how many times you make the combine with low success rates, you will eventually get it. If the intent is to prevent the combine as I think Ngreth meant, then a solution already exists for this. You can set a min skill requirement on the combine itself as has been done in the past with items like Muramite Armor combines.

Afaik vendors have never before been used to prevent a player from seeing items based on their skill levels or races, so I believe it's a new code trick.

I think putting required skill on the combines themselves is a terrible idea. There are too many people that have 220 in skills simply because that is where they had to get for Aid Grimel and never went further. It creates a "cap" that is not the max.

Second, as far as vendors preventing players from seeing items, go look at any faction based reward merchants in DoN, TSS, TBS, PoR. Faction and level can and are used to limit what merchants offer. Aid Grimel would not talk to you unless you had 220 skill.

There is no way someone with little or no skill is going to be able to create an item that rivals that of masters of the trade without putting in some effort towards learning the trade. Hand someone some silk and thread and a needle and you expect to get an inticately woven tapestry? If you try enough as you say, eventually you will gain the skill needed and then you will start to see successes.

[Xislaben]

I think putting required skill on the combines themselves is a terrible idea. There are too many people that have 220 in skills simply because that is where they had to get for Aid Grimel and never went further. It creates a "cap" that is not the max.

You make no sense here, it's effectively the exact same result, for the exact same reason you justify not being able to see the books/doing the high triv combine. At least for now you can currently experiment and get the end result, if this is disabled it'll be the exact same as having a min skill req.

case 1, I can't do the combine because I can't buy the book with the recipe because I lack the skill it requires to purchase it. Smithing/Tailoring/Tinkering etc requires a new reading skill does it?

case 2, I can't do the combine because the combine requires a higher skill than I have.

Second, as far as vendors preventing players from seeing items, go look at any faction based reward merchants in DoN, TSS, TBS, PoR. Faction and level can and are used to limit what merchants offer. Aid Grimel would not talk to you unless you had 220 skill.

edit:
Skill and Race, I said. Yes vendors have selectively listed goods based on faction, and class/archetype, and special currency, some of which goes as far back as LDoN, but not Skill and race afaik. It may be a simple matter of passing a different field to a subroutine, but it's still a new mechanic to the best of my knowledge.

There is no way someone with little or no skill is going to be able to create an item that rivals that of masters of the trade without putting in some effort towards learning the trade. Hand someone some silk and thread and a needle and you expect to get an inticately woven tapestry? If you try enough as you say, eventually you will gain the skill needed and then you will start to see successes.

To the best of my knowledge you can currently do this with any TS item in game that doesn't have a min skill cap. 5&#37; is 1/20, buy enough crap for about 30 or 40 attempts and you've got a decent chance of getting 1. And it'll take you a heck of a lot less time than skilling up to 270ish and then attempting, though it may have an unpleasant price premium attached depending on the combine.

[Aldier]

You make no sense here, it's effectively the exact same result, for the exact same reason you justify not being able to see the books/doing the high triv combine. At least for now you can currently experiment and get the end result, if this is disabled it'll be the exact same as having a min skill req.

case 1, I can't do the combine because I can't buy the book with the recipe because I lack the skill it requires to purchase it. Smithing/Tailoring/Tinkering etc requires a new reading skill does it?

case 2, I can't do the combine because the combine requires a higher skill than I have.

What I mean is, if you set a number as the minimum required to attempt the combine, you will have people skill to that point ONLY and then stop. If you make it so that the book is not available until a certain point, I think that most people are not just going to stop at 275 and not continue to skill up to 300. Also, since the success caps have been removed, there is improved chances to succeed the higher your skill. So it benefits you to have higher skill, not just the minimum needed to see the book. Most tradeskillers, I do not think are out there to just make 1 item, once for themselves.

Also, Ngreth has said he is considering leaving the "bug" in that currently allows you to experiment to make the armor just not learn the recipe.