Sunshard - blessing or curse?

[Gaell Stormracer]

Unfortunately, the "lower level toons" are pretty much just alts at this stage in EQ's life, and mostly heavily twinked, power-levelled alts at that -- for whom the sunshard armours/weapons are no competition with what's easily bought from the Bazaar. I don't see that as a particularly viable economic model.

[Catweazel]

After all that's been said, sadly, I think Sunshard Ore will remain as an income booster for the bazaar bottom feeders and a source of skill ups for the people willing to camp vendors or hoard and stockpile for many months. From a tradeskill perspective, the resultant armor is trash with the only plus when compared to Masters cultural is that at least it can be sold or tributed.

On the concept of global drops I still see a potential risk in getting suffficient quantity of any material into the hands of tradeskillers. It might well be simple in concept and design to implement, but moreso than ever before, in order to limit the influx of materials into the game, prices will end up being controlled by a few in the bazaar and camping for tradeskill income or skill ups will be extremely difficult, if not impossible. Controlled by level sounds good on the surface, but we could end up with supply spikes if and when drops are placed on the highest level mobs, for many reasons. I can only really compare it to Yttrium. I knew where to go, what to kill, had almost unimpeded access to camps, could make money, and it was as boring as anything I have known but at least I knew the investment and the reward.

As global drops are a work in progress though I am happy enough to wait and see what happens.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Also, I never said it was *the* path, but an *additional* path, and it is.

[Tassrin]

The idea of the global drops was to get them in your normal everyday exp/solo/duo however you exp, groups. At least that was my understanding of why they were done that way. This way there is no bottle neck of XXX-high level farmer is stealing newbie mobs from folks that are of level trying to exp at the same spot due to tradeskill drops. There was more then one time BACKKKKKKKKKKK in the day trying to exp yes exp in E. Karana where some high level was slaughtering the whole zone for tradeskill drops leaving no mobs you us young'em to kill. When I needed silks when I got to be that high level char I tried to make sure there was no young'em in the zone trying to get exp as to NOT take their mobs away. I hated that when I was there so I didn't want to do it to others.

I'd be more sympathetic to your ideas if it weren't for the fact that the sunshard ore makes armor for level 65's, not 75's. Granted there's no highest tier sunshard (not yet anyway) but the ore isn't there for you to skill up on, it's to make armor with. That being said it's perfectly reasonable that the drops be level restricted and it makes sense.

[Gaell Stormracer]

I'd be more sympathetic to your ideas if it weren't for the fact that the sunshard ore makes armor for level 65's, not 75's. Granted there's no highest tier sunshard (not yet anyway) but the ore isn't there for you to skill up on, it's to make armor with.

I'd be more sympathetic to YOUR ideas if the armour was worth using, rather than skilling up.

[Tassrin]

I'd be more sympathetic to YOUR ideas if the armour was worth using, rather than skilling up.

Touche` however I don't think that's entirely relavent to this particular discussion.

[Catweazel]

I'd be more sympathetic to your ideas if it weren't for the fact that the sunshard ore makes armor for level 65's, not 75's. ...... That being said it's perfectly reasonable that the drops be level restricted and it makes sense.

I must admit, I am confused by this concept. Since when did tradeskill level have anything to do with mob level or player level? Perhaps it has always been that way and I never noticed before?

Also, I never said it was *the* path, but an *additional* path, and it is.

I love choice and options

[Tassrin]

In some ways it has always been directly tied (not in every combine or every skill for that matter).

When PoP came out what were the highest skill level things you could make? And where did the components for them drop? There's been three mindsets it seems for how to go about itemizing the world for tradeskillers.

1) Farmable grey mobs that everyone complains about because it's tedious.
2) Level restricted world drops
3) Harder mobs that drop rarer/more valued components uniquely.

#3 started happening with Planes of Power mainly, #2 is sunshard in a nutshell, #1 is generally derided but accepted as the norm.

Personally I like #2 the best. Broad range of mobs to get things from means you don't have to farm hard mobs in specific zones, just hard mobs in lots of zones. The fact that there isn't a "rank 4" level 75 required sunshard is not a failure on the global drop system as a whole.

[Qqnaua]

I think Sunshard Ore should drop off any 55+ mob, period. Not 55-65. Drop rate would be generally increased across the board but people would still have to get out there and exp to get it.

[Catweazel]

I think Sunshard Ore should drop off any 55+ mob, period. Not 55-65. Drop rate would be generally increased across the board but people would still have to get out there and exp to get it.

As soon as that happens, you lose a lot of control in the amount coming to the marketplace / being available for tradeskillers. Weird events (like double experience weekend, raid targets, specific items that drop in specific zones and are suddenly popular) and many many other examples I am sure, all produce spikes or troughs in the amount coming into the game.

A better solution is to use a combination of specific mobs loot tables *and* the global drop rate so that income can be more minutely controlled. It's not the perfect maintenance free solution Ngreth described above however the additional controls might be worth the pain.

[Gaell Stormracer]

1) Farmable grey mobs that everyone complains about because it's tedious.
2) Level restricted world drops
3) Harder mobs that drop rarer/more valued components uniquely.

#3 started happening with Planes of Power mainly, #2 is sunshard in a nutshell, #1 is generally derided but accepted as the norm.

Personally I like #2 the best. Broad range of mobs to get things from means you don't have to farm hard mobs in specific zones, just hard mobs in lots of zones. The fact that there isn't a "rank 4" level 75 required sunshard is not a failure on the global drop system as a whole.

The cap to the drops at 65 means that, for level 75 people, it's just as tedious as your option (1) but worse because the mobs are hard enough to require a significant effort to kill - and hence lower kill rate - but offer no real XP either - so in effect, it's just option 1 but, with added tedium.

[Tassrin]

Yes, I agree. However given that the intended target of the armor is not level 75's but in fact 65's then the 65's are making good xp and getting the drops as well. In my opinion, that's an intended mechanic.

Look past the fact that people tend to do bulk combines to increase skill and look more to the fact that tradeskills are designed to make usable gear. Whether the gear is actually 'usable' or not is a debate for another occaision.

I really loved EQ2's tradeskill design. If you were smart you didn't grind certain recipes. You went out and tried to make at least one of everything to get the noticable experience increases for first time creations. Couple that with the fact that crafted gear is noticably comparable to quested or dropped gear of the same tier and it gives a large incentive to make many different items while 'skilling up'.

If EQ tradeskills didn't require substantially more combines per skill point at higher levels this wouldn't be an issue. Everyone would be 300 skill and just be making stuff for themselves/friends/twinks. However this would drastically reduce the prestige of those 2100 club members we hold in high regard and make a 300 tradeskiller a garden variety sort. Again, in my opinion, I believe the best course of action isn't to hope for an increased drop level of items intended to be utilized by characters in the 60's but instead to wait for Ngreth's upcoming cultural changes to provide the stated skillup path that he has promised.

Synopsis: if you are looking for an easy skillup path, look elsewhere then sunshard ore. It's designed for level 65's and you 75's will feel disenfranchised having to kill such 'hard' mobs to gather the materials.

P.S. I'm not coming at this from the perspective of a 75 with max in all skills as you can tell from my sig. I'm not "wanting it hard for everyone else while it was easy for myself". I'm wanting it hard for myself because I think the current situation makes sense and leaves a lot of room for growth and improvment as levels continue to increase, skill caps eventually following (I'd imagine), and the level of gear continuing to escalate. Global drops are a major blessing from my viewpoint and I'm glad for them.

[Gaell Stormracer]

P.S. I'm not coming at this from the perspective of a 75 with max in all skills as you can tell from my sig. I'm not "wanting it hard for everyone else while it was easy for myself". I'm wanting it hard for myself because I think the current situation makes sense and leaves a lot of room for growth and improvment as levels continue to increase, skill caps eventually following (I'd imagine), and the level of gear continuing to escalate. Global drops are a major blessing from my viewpoint and I'm glad for them.

And therein lies your bias. However, I strongly suspect that you'll be well past 65 before your tradeskills all hit 300.

[Tassrin]

No doubt. Perhaps I'm too much of an idealist to hope that the system can be shifted in such a way that tradeskills can be cultivated as you level. That would be the perfect situation in my opinion. One where massive plat dumps at higher levels for bought components as well as huge skillup runs are shunned in favor of a more natural approach.

Other games do it. EQ could too.

As it is however, my bias doesn't change the fact that the Sunshard Ore drops where it does from the mobs it does because it's not intended to be a sole skillup path, but instead used for equipment at the level it drops. (Semantics I know because most won't wear it).

Oh and I level slowly so who knows I may join the 2100 before even hitting 60

EDIT: You know I think I realized what the crux of my argument is on this ore issue. Don't ask for ore to drop in more places. Ask for Sunshard Bricks to start dropping from 66 - 75 mobs and a new tier of armor introduced that the 75 crowd might find appealing. Onward and upward and ******d and all that rot.

[Abazagaroth]

The fact that sunshard ore gives three skillup attempts per ore in the 290+ trivial range (to a number of different tradeskills) will mean that it doesn't drops as much as something else. However, it isn't a horrific drop rate if you go to the right places.

If you want sunshard ore, especially if you can get a few melee dps with you, go to GoD zones. Lower level ones. Sewers works great. While gates mobs have higher than normal attack and thus put out more dps than similar level mobs in other places, they also have less hit points. So if you can put out some dps and the dps taken isn't bad for you, you can do ok.

Soloing in vxed for 2 hours I got 9 ores, that's as a paladin. That's 27 possible skillup attempts across a couple of tradeskills (high end combines) in 2 hours. Not bad.