Making Recipe Books useful

[Bobaten]

Or leave the recipe exactly as they are: instead the recipe book will be in the form of a few different cryptic notes scattered about that you have to farm all to "learn" the entire BBC The same cryptic notes that some players went nut trying to solve last year. =)

But if all they need to do is pick up the groundspawn to learn the recipe, then there is no longer any reason for it to be cryptic (and we lose the fun of solving). This recipe has already been solved of course, so it applies more to future recipes.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Question:

Right now we have racial sewing kits to do race restricted combines in, How will these be handled?

If we can no longer "open" them to be containers will they have to be stored in an inventory slot or will they now "fit" into bags since they are no longer considered containers so it would not be "trying to put a bag into a bag"?

I have in my bank:
wood elf fletching kit
wood elf sewing kit
coldian sewing kit
reinforced jewelry bag.

Since all of these containers are needed for certain combines I cannot get rid of them. If all of these now take up a slot, but cannot be used as a container to hold items when not in use as a kit, then most of us will lose 4-6 main bag slots and 20-40 bag slots. We all know how precious bank space is to tradeskillers

Will it still be necessary to have diferent sewing kits for different combines?
culturial kit - culturial combines
coldian kit - Velious combines
planer kit - PoP combines


Thanks.

You would still be required to have them, they just would no longer be "containers" as far as the container code is concerned, but just another item as far as the container code is concerned, so it would fit in a real container. The trade-skill code would consider it a type of "tool" needed to make combines. It would also be the object you right click to get a recipe list. At least that is our current thought on the matter.

[Unapuma]

But if all they need to do is pick up the groundspawn to learn the recipe, then there is no longer any reason for it to be cryptic (and we lose the fun of solving). This recipe has already been solved of course, so it applies more to future recipes.

True it wouldn't be "unsolved" but the player would still need to gather the notes to "learn" to make BBC with the new recipe system Ngreth is trying to implement.

[Liwsa]

OK another issue/question.

If these changes go in will everyone be able to get a toolbox combine list. As you need to recharge items in a toolbox suck as a shrink device or invis one. Currently only gnomes can get the recipe lists and the rest of the races need to use the "experiment" container.

Also when this change goes in and the kits as they are today(useable as containers) will there be a way to get our stuff out of one or do they all have to be empty the day of the patch. I use my "kits" as bank bags until doing a combine that needs one, if I have to empty those 4-5 "kits" before the patch so not to lose the stuff in them it is going to be a pita to find room to store the stuff since I will have to leave the kits/containers in a slot and empty. I guess some kits i can get rid of since I can just go buy another (coldian sewing kit and such).

Also what about containers folks are selling that are tokenized, will they still be able to be converted back to the New Kit(I see people selling reinforced jewelry kits all the time).

[Bobaten]

Only gnomes can use toolboxes now. The replacement container for non-gnomes to recharge tinkered items is going in with tomorrow's patch I believe.
Current tradeskill containers will have to continue to remain containers for all of the people who miss a message about conversion. I suspect it will work like the DoN cultural kit change did. Everyone will have to acquire new tradeskill "containers".

[Unapuma]

What about other items that acts like tradeskill container but only for specific combines? For example the ring of shissar is a 4 slot taskmaster bag + 3 items in it then combine to make the ring. Any idea how would the tradeskill change affect the quest type combine container? There are also 2 sets of quest type containers one in Mons Letalis and one in Dreadland. Both are on the very top of the tallest spires and is used in wizzy epics (IIRC).

[Ngreth Thergn]

We have not gotten as far as deciding what will happen to quest containers. It may be that quest containers continue to stay. Which means a few tradeskill combines would also stay as they go in "quest" containers. We just have not gotten that far in our brainstorming.

I.E. the new recharging kit is a quest container, the AAAA is a quest container.

[Liwsa]

If all containers no longer can be opened in NON-EXPERIMENT mode then NO ONE other then gnomes will be able to use/open a toolbox. Right now everyone can "use" a toolbox be it for storeage or to recharge an item(yes new ones will have to be gotten but we can do it). Once the change that goes in to only open kits with the recipe list ui version of an open kit NO ONE can use any KITS for storage. That was my question about emptying them before the patch that makes this change.

[Unapuma]

I think we are way ahead but I would think that any toolboxes on non gnome would get converted to a 10 slots dicenchanted bags so you could collect stuff and replace the bag with other containers.

[Liwsa]

It is not just tool boxes, it is sewing kits, fletching kits, and mixing bowls for examples. If we still "need" these things as been stated then they cannot all be changed to the disenchanted bags UNLESS we are going to have to go remake/buy NEW ones yet again as when all the culturial kits had to be remade.

WTS Deluxe sewing kits(might as well sell the 40 of them I have since soon will be useless).

ROFL. Can see in POK, all the level 1 alts with toolboxes now changed to 25 stone bags. OOC Can someone sow me so I can move please waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

[Abazagaroth]

As an avid tradeskiller, I am totally opposed to this change. I am surprised so many seem to be on the bandwagon right out of the gates on an idea like this.

It takes away a lot of the mystery, it takes away the ability to experiment, it alters fundamentally the way tradeskill containers work and creates an artificial barrier to entry into the tradeskill market (plat to buy books for recipes) where before, most tradeskills could be done for free or ultra cheap if you really wanted to farm.

Creating the new tradeskill UI was a nod to preventing carpal tunnel, ok, good change I guess.

Making it so you couldn't combine stacks of something, great, because it makes sense to not be able to put too much of some ingredient in.

Make it so you don't lose components on a DNC? Excellent! Made experimentation worthwhile and not so painful, and prevented accidents.

But I just don't see the value in this. I mean, if its a right click book, what about the lore? Now we buy books we can't read to automatically learn recipes without having ever made them?

I am getting scared that the devs are starting to work on streamlining certain development issues in order to reduce their workload and make putting everquest on auto-management easier. I mean, once implemented, its a lot less man-hours to just make a book item entry with right click funtionality that adds 20 recipes to your personal tradeskill UI, than it is to try and come up with lore text for all those same recipes and spell check it all, right?

And what about the fact that as of now, you don't really "learn" a recipe. Unless it has changed, the last time I reloaded everquest after formatting my hard-drive I had to relearn every single recipe, so it wasn't located on some sony server as "recipe learned", it must be located on our computers in our character specific UI information. So if someone reformats, they need to rebuy every single book again to do any tradeskills?

I just dont like it. I don't like hoops to have to jump through for no good reason other than "just because", and while something like, say, needing to constantly restock ore vendors that start off with barely enough ore to do 2 AAAAs (after converting the blocks and small bricks to large bricks) is annoying, not even being able to combine something without first tracking down a book somewhere isn't fun at all.

[shadyn]

I would like to see a set of "bank only" bags.

Small Safety Deposit Bag 40 slots, small items only
Medium Saftey Deposit Bag 30 slots, medium and small only
Large Saftey Deposit Bag 20 slots, large, medium and small
Giant Saftey Deposit Bat 12 slots, Giant, large, medium and small

All of these are 200 stone in weight, these are for the bank, not to carry around.

If you want to get real fun, how about:
Tradeskill Safety Deposit Bag 50 slots, items must be marked Tradeskill size doesnt matter. (how of you have mule after mule just to hold this stuff?)

You could also code the Tradeskill trophies to counter act the weight of the TS bag when the trophy held in the Primary slot. This way we could swap out to our stockpile and go tradeskilling and not be over weight.

[Ngreth Thergn]

It is not just tool boxes, it is sewing kits, fletching kits, and mixing bowls for examples. If we still "need" these things as been stated then they cannot all be changed to the disenchanted bags UNLESS we are going to have to go remake/buy NEW ones yet again as when all the culturial kits had to be remade.

WTS Deluxe sewing kits(might as well sell the 40 of them I have since soon will be useless).

ROFL. Can see in POK, all the level 1 alts with toolboxes now changed to 25 stone bags. OOC Can someone sow me so I can move please waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Something will be done. We won't strand everyone without bags.
We have not gotten that far yet though to decide what we would do.

[Ngreth Thergn]

As an avid tradeskiller, I am totally opposed to this change. I am surprised so many seem to be on the bandwagon right out of the gates on an idea like this.

{snip for shortness}

Thank you for the input. While I don't have a specific comment to it at this time, I do not want you to think it is ignored.

[Ndaara]

i'm an avid tradeskiller in both EQ1 and EQ2. There are aspects of both that i really like, and don't like.

i like the IDEA of learning recipes from books, but it would depend on implementation if i actually like it or not. for example, my EQ1 characters don't raid, but do lots of tradeskills. back when POP was new, i made plenty of combines for raiders who got the elemental drops, because i had the skill. if i would have to go to the elemental planes to get my recipes, before i could do the combines, i would have been upset. i was already unhappy that i couldn't go there myself, but accepted it as a consequence of my own lack of big chunks of time.

i don't want to turn this into a raider/non-raider rant =p just offering my opinion with an example that i hope makes sense.

in EQ2, my woodworker JUST dinged level 50, and now i get to figure out where to find my T6 recipe books (haven't had a chance to look yet). i love to explore so i'm actually looking forward to the hunt. but...

on the other hand, it's great to know exactly what i can make at each level. i can open my list of learned recipes anywhere in the world and see exactly what i need and how much of each. i also like knowing that all the crafting stations are in one place, even if most of them are crafting dungeons =) in the early days of interdependence, it was cool to have everyone nearby.

mostly i don't like the idea of tying tradeskilling to adventure levels. i refuse to level my tinker gnome, for example, on principle, even though leveling her would be nice to get things like salvage and the mastery AA. leaving more room for different play styles is important to me.

also i LOVE the tradeskill ui that doesn't require so much clicking. my wrists were just a mess from the old way, even if i was marginally faster at it. now i am not in pain. no comments on my own stupidity for clicking despite pain... you know you did it too =p

and Ngreth, i honestly don't think ANYONE here doesn't trust YOU. however any of us who've been playing for a few years, clearly remember some of your predecessors who were, um, shall we say, less communicative? less thorough? not as sensitive? things have happened over the years that i'm sure were not intentional, but Ngreth was the first person in my recollection to offer clear communication, reasoning, and even apologies when appropriate.

if ALL devs were like Ngreth, there would be no alarmists =) there would be no need for them! <adds one more thank you note to Ngreth's pile>