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**Aleksandros** · 10-17-2006, 08:23 AM

The Artisan's Charm, *as implemented*, is an absolutely incredible piece of equipment, difficult to make but not obscene. My personal opinion on it is, there's no sense whatsoever "gilding the lily". It's a beaut, augment it, and gaze in wonder at the absolute best charm in game. I can't wait til I have all the materials gathered to take a crack at making one for myself.

Guess there really is no pleasing some folks

**Bobaten** · 10-17-2006, 08:31 AM

The charm actually kind of does that already, just not in the way you describe. It calculates its power based on your total tradeskills minus 700. So the max stats at 2100, are based around 1400/1400. If you were at 1500, your stats would be based around 800/1400 or 57% strength, rather than 1500/2100 or 71% strength. To put it another way, the first 700 points you gain in tradeskills don't count, only the last 1400.

**Qaladar Bragollach** · 10-17-2006, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Aleksandros

The Artisan's Charm, *as implemented*, is an absolutely incredible piece of equipment, difficult to make but not obscene. My personal opinion on it is, there's no sense whatsoever "gilding the lily". It's a beaut, augment it, and gaze in wonder at the absolute best charm in game. I can't wait til I have all the materials gathered to take a crack at making one for myself.

Guess there really is no pleasing some folks

Its not the best charm in the game.

Take http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83643 for example.

**Tevaran** · 10-17-2006, 09:06 AM

While that charm from demiplane is good, it is only that good when you are wearing so much of the demi-plane visable armor.

Since much of that armor is mediocre, you can only max it by wearing that armor over better armor in other zones so you are sacrificing stuff somewhere.

tev

**Pootle** · 10-17-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote-----------------------------------------------
My point being that its very time consuming and costly to get those last skillups, (from 220 to 300 in many cases) and as it is they are hardly worth getting with the cap on succes on many tradeskilled items. The charm doesn't really give an incentive to get those last skillups either.
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The charm is an amazing piece of equipment and at 68, with Slipgear and Wanderlust guild augs added (my tradeskills are around 1780), it is by far the best piece of equipment i own.

I really fail to see how you are not happy with it? I am sure Ngreth busted his huge Ogre Butt to get this into the game, and for that I thank him.

If you really want an incentive to get to 300, how about the ability to work your trophies to max level???? or plain old bragging rights? or even plainer older love for tradeskills?

**Elfdruidess** · 10-17-2006, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Bobaten

The charm actually kind of does that already, just not in the way you describe. It calculates its power based on your total tradeskills minus 700. So the max stats at 2100, are based around 1400/1400. If you were at 1500, your stats would be based around 800/1400 or 57% strength, rather than 1500/2100 or 71% strength. To put it another way, the first 700 points you gain in tradeskills don't count, only the last 1400.

Can we give Bobaten an award for "making difficult explanations simple to understand". Bobaten always succeeds in doing this beautifully.

**Zacatac** · 10-17-2006, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Qaladar Bragollach

Its not the best charm in the game.

And it's not supposed to be the best charm in the game.

Ngreth already said he pushed it up as much as he was allowed. Stop trying to ask for more. With high skills and 2 aug slots, it's over 300hp/mana.

My current stats with slipgear and adventurer stone (and adventurer stone is no where close to max level), and I'm about 200 skill points below max.

AC: 37
STR: +38 DEX: +38 STA: +38 CHA: +38 Wis: +38 INT: +38 AGI: +38 HP: +270 MANA: +270 Endurance: +270 SV FIRE: +29 SV DISEASE: +29 SV COLD: +29 SV MAGIC: +29 SV POISON: +29

**Wyvernwill** · 10-17-2006, 02:41 PM

Mine is at 45ac 45stats 330hp/mana/end 35 svs with Slipgear, and Adv stone (adv stone is 6 / 62) This charm is nothing short of awesome, and not massively overpowering on the end game items. It seems much like Aid grimel in a lot of respects.

**Kibber** · 10-17-2006, 03:00 PM

Maybe my post had too much of a "half empty" feel in its message.

I am really very happy that this is in the game, and with the slipgears gem and the wanderlust augment, its extremely nice. Also the very best charm I can get, especially with my skills.

So, no I am not displeased with it, I just think it doesn't reward those who have really made a tradeskill effort compared to how it rewards everyone else who have, say 200 in all tradeskills. You might call it slightly unbalanced.

And I can believe that this is probably the most we can squeeze out of the devs.

Next time I voice my opinion I will try to make it politically correct as not to offend anyone.

Kibber, The Rathe

**Qaladar Bragollach** · 10-17-2006, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by Zacatac

And it's not supposed to be the best charm in the game.

Ngreth already said he pushed it up as much as he was allowed. Stop trying to ask for more. With high skills and 2 aug slots, it's over 300hp/mana.

My current stats with slipgear and adventurer stone (and adventurer stone is no where close to max level), and I'm about 200 skill points below max.

AC: 37
STR: +38 DEX: +38 STA: +38 CHA: +38 Wis: +38 INT: +38 AGI: +38 HP: +270 MANA: +270 Endurance: +270 SV FIRE: +29 SV DISEASE: +29 SV COLD: +29 SV MAGIC: +29 SV POISON: +29

I wasn't asking for more... merely refuting the claim that it is the best charm in the game.

**Ngreth Thergn** · 10-18-2006, 08:46 AM

I do not believe that there will be any more adjustment to the stats... I could possibly adjust the formula to make it more of a curve so the stats growth is larger as you get closer to the end, I just felt that was complicating things... but at this point it would also "nerf" people who are not maxed, so I am leery to take it from this "linear" method.

Of course I have also forgotten most of my math and I don't remember how to formulaicly do a curve

(hint hint to math wiz's out there)

**Pootle** · 10-18-2006, 08:55 AM

Oh my... finally after all these years, something we were taught at school has a practical use in the 'real' world.

**Zolina** · 10-18-2006, 09:36 AM

I love my charm loads; it may not have Avoidance or anything, but with it, Wayfarer's and Wanderlust maxed, it's 400 hp/mana/end, 43 AC, 42 to all stats and resists, definitely something to be proud of.

If you'd like a smooth curve that's close to the current flat-line-then-slope behavior, you could probably use something like the f(x) = x^2 curve on [0,1]. Let x = sum of tradeskills / 2100. We'll need f(0) = 0 and f(1) = 1 (100%), so just use f(x) = x^2. Be sure to multiply it by MIN(level, 70) / 70 to keep the level adjustment in.

Now here's the kicker: is this, on average, a nerf or not? To find out, we must resort to... calculus! The old curve is a triangle with base 2/3 and height 1, so its area is 2/3 * 1/2 = 1/3. The new curve is x^2 where x varies from 0 to 1, so its area is 1/3 * (1 - 0) = 1/3! Neither a nerf nor a boost on average, just a change of distribution.

Some sample data points:
All tradeskills 0, old 0%, new 0%
All tradeskills 50, old 0%, new 3%
All tradeskills 100, old 0%, new 11%
All tradeskills 150, old 25%, new 25%
All tradeskills 200, old 50%, new 44%
All tradeskills 250, old 75%, new 69%
All tradeskills 275, old 88%, new 84%
All tradeskills 300, old 100%, new 100%

Yipe, once I get past 150, the flat line is actually slightly more than the smooth curve, which is the opposite of the desired behavior. Those with lower skill get a small boost with the new curve while those with high-but-not-maxed skill get a small nerf. Bleh, back to the drawing board. Maybe a sine curve....

**Twistagain** · 10-18-2006, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Ngreth Thergn

I do not believe that there will be any more adjustment to the stats... I could possibly adjust the formula to make it more of a curve so the stats growth is larger as you get closer to the end, I just felt that was complicating things... but at this point it would also "nerf" people who are not maxed, so I am leery to take it from this "linear" method.

Of course I have also forgotten most of my math and I don't remember how to formulaicly do a curve

(hint hint to math wiz's out there)

Right now, you are using a linear formula so that Y = (x-100)/200, where Y is the modifier to the stats and X is the average tradeskill level.

In order to get a curve, you'd need an exponent on the X value. A couple of possibilities are:

1) Y = (x^2-10000)/80000
2) Y = ((X-100)/200)^2 (easier to implement...as it just squares the current value)

The first is half the difference between current and the second. Some example values:

Code:

X    Current  Formula 1  Formula 2 
100  0.000    0.000      0.000      
125  0.125    0.070      0.016      
150  0.250    0.156      0.063      
175  0.375    0.258      0.141      
200  0.500    0.375      0.250      
225  0.625    0.508      0.391      
250  0.750    0.656      0.563      
275  0.875    0.820      0.766      
300  1.000    1.000      1.000

If you wanted it to scale up from 0, you could try: Y = X^2/90000 = (X/300)^2. That would result in higher Y values for X = 0 to 150, but slightly lower values from 150 to 300.

This would:
a) make the later points worth more without diminishing the current values much
b) make the lower tradeskill levels worth something

The worst negative impact would be a 10% decrease in the modifier at 225. To put that in perspective, at 225:

Code:

     AC  STATS  HP/MANA/END  SAVES
NOW  18  15     140          12
NEW  16  14     126          11

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