Fan Faire Discussion Topics

[Bobaten]

Sounds to me like poisonmaking is at about the level of pre-LoY research. Researchers have recieved a couple of nice revamps now making us useful for nearly everyone, so it does seem that it is time for poisonmaking to get the same treatment.

[likenew]

poisons were never useful though, but with research...at least you could make rgc di and many others if you just found the right drops =-)


to answer others questsions, poisons made from poison making are a tradeskill that only benefits rogues, because only rogues can apply them be it the buff proc of pop+ poisons or the old world one shot only poisons. the exception is of course oow augs, you need a shm or a rog for 2 crucial combines of it, and the 2 other crucial combines(smithing and cutting) can be done by any class.

our pop+ poisons are buff procs that last generally for 15 minutes. some last a shorter time(and from a bug some of these 15 minute buffs were only lasting 1 min, soon to be changed if it hasn't been already). our loy 35% slow proc poison is a 2 min buff. so to fix your "refreshed" statement arryl, pop+ poisons don't need to be reapplied every mob, well maybe except for that slow poison...if for some reason you actually see a difference in a 35% partially slowed mob(since all slows are mitigated of course ;-)) and wanted to use it, you prolly would have to reclick it cuz of the 2 min duration. the unstackable old world poisons are the ones that need to be reapplied every mob. though it is possible to sit down and apply it during that same mob, if mezzable, and your really fast, if soloing, or if you walk far enough away to avoid sit down agro while grouping...technically you could sit down and reapply it more then once per mob =-) but you'd certainly either just prolong the fight because your not dpsing the mob cuz your poison prolly won't hit anyway, or learn that your just wasting your time sitting down every few seconds for a few seconds while trying to get one poison to not resist =-)

also, poisons can only be applied to a mainhand piercing weapon, though i haven't tried applying with a blunt or slash in main for a few years so i could be wrong about that. as well, poisons can NOT be applied to throwing weapons, we asked for that once, and i'm pretty sure we got no response(ahh the glory days of not having all that many concerns). we have more pressing issues atm though then to be even activly trying to worry about poison making, especially since we've been asking for a revamp of it since day 1 and its been on our top 10 with "to be considered in the future" or some jazz like that, since the sony boards and top 10's were created as well. most rogues really just don't care about it anymore, as its never been anything more then a time sink and gimmick...just something we can do to waste time/plat/etc. and as well, until por came out with a new 15% poison making mod, there was no reason to max poison making. we found that(since augs were the only thing worth using the skill for) the failure rate for making oow aug combines with our 5% mod, was the same at 300, as it was at...i believe 275 was it? i can't remember the exact number, but the only reason rogue had before por to max poison making was for a spiffy title.

there are also some tradeable poisons out there, but rogues generally don't go buying them for the many reasons already stated =-) but like i said earlier, i do believe that all melee classes should be able to apply poisons we make. i think it should be restricted somewhat, that they must have a pierce or slasher in there main hands(really don't see poisons working too well with a blunt object). i think tanks would certainly like our poisons that have a stun component in them, since stun = agro(why would rogues really make these for themselves? i mean, ya we have that new taunt key(mez), but we really aren't tanks, and really have no desire to be tanks!!). i'm sure other classes would like our dot or dd poisons, and i think our antiagro poisons could possibly be put to use for casters as well, as a sort of focus to lower hate on certain spells(as well as keep the same antiagro proc for meleers).

something that did boggle us though, is why shm are able to make throwing items like they do, and rogue can not. why is that?

and wanyen, i don't really get most of your posts. but poison making is both a pure tradeskill and a pure class skill, even w/o a market there are tradeable poisons, as well as augs, and of course only rogues can do the combines, with the exception of augs as the shm can do the same combines, only gnomes can do tinkering combines, and only int classes can do research. i don't really see how 3 of the many pet classes came into this conversation either. though, i'm not sure how true the statement of rogue poisons being a factor in class balance is. one could say of course that poisons have great "potential" to add dps and utility in the form of snares slows and debuffs. but one would have to live under a rock to not know how bad poisons really are, and in there current forms(old and not so new) having no realistic potential at all.

if poisons could be used by all, they would be considered the detrimental versions of alchemy. would not be considered in the least in class balance, as ppl would actually have to go buy and use these poisons, just like ppl have to go buy and use the new hot potions, or throwing items, or whatever. i also believe that if poisons are used by all, rogues should have a distict advantage of them being more potent when we use them, ie do more damage. if they remained only things usable by rogues, aside from the horrid resist rates, every dd/dot poison needs to have massive increase of no less then 5x what they currently are now in damage. but above all else, all poisons need to not be resisted 99.8% of the time, there needs to be many more vendor bought poisons, and the farm time for other better poisons needs to be cut tremendously, 1-3 hours to farm 1 regent to make a simple trival combine is just absurd, unless that poison was guarenteed to hit and did 5k+ damage then i could certainly see it.

well i'm tired, was gonna go to bed 3 hours ago and kept getting delayed

l8rz!

[Maevenniia]

Hmmm... nah, i don't think it's just you.

is poison making a "tradeskill", or a class combat skill? if the former, then it would make sense for poisons to be made available for use by other classes. methinx it would need to be done very carefully so's not to unduly create yet another "class balance uproar", a possible approach might be along the lines of requiring a rogue to actually apply the poison (whether to a blade, shuriken, or whatever), and probably making that application "no-rent", meaning, need to have a rogue in the group/raid to utilize the feature. (i understand that poisons are something that needs to be "refreshed" for each mob, am just thinking of the possibility of treating a stack of throwing weapons for pulling). if it is to be strictly a class combat skill (as seems to be the actual case, with the exception of the augments), then you certainly have my "vote" that the majority of components become available from vendors, or at least, far more common as drops.

continuing with the tradeskill "definition", i still think that finding ways of combining that skill with others could open the way for some interesting player crafted items, fletching would be a natural (poison, stun, etc. as others have mentioned), for tailoring, possibly a component that would impart ds characteristics.

my quick summary, after rambling on... either be a tradeskill, in which case, the scope should be widened, or a class utility, in which case, yes, it seems to be way out of proportion in difficulty for it's intended utility.

Actually, you have it kind of backwards there.

Poison-MAKING is a tradeskill, and should remain Rogue only.

But Apply Poison should be a combat skill made available to other melee classes (warriors at least, rangers for poisoned arrows?, other?) that would create a market for rogues' poisons, esp if they could be made to stack like shammy potions now stack and if the apply poison methodology could be improved to allow the player to apply poison using the potion belt, or some such convenient mechanism....

[Wanyen]

If I may interject, again..RE: Skill -- "Apply Poison"

For all classes, poisons should work just like potions during the application/activation process, with something extra happening for rogues.

That something extra, ideally IMO, would be that "Apply Poison" remains a rogue skill, but instead of determining sucess or failure in application of a poison to the primary slot, or reducing time to apply (which is generally reasonable if all poison applications worked like the new poisons, and potions, such that you stand when applying), it should act as a conservation skill, similar in many respects to how a caster's school of magic (evo, abj, alt, div, etc) specialization is intended to work.

The relationship between "Apply Poison" and specialization would not be exactly the same, because AFAIK the intent of specialization is to have a chance to save a percentage amount of mana based on the specialization skill. Poison would differ because, obviously, you would not be able to save a percentage of a dose or charge -- it would be all or nothing, so it would have to be a pseudo fuzzy function comparing skill of "Apply Poison" to something else -- like max theoretical "Apply Poison" at a given level compared with actual "Apply Poison" skill level, for example. The higher your skill in "Apply Poison", the greater the chance that when it is applied, the poison is not consumed and your inventory of poisons is not reduced.

Each time a poison is applied, a chance to skill up "Apply Poison" should occur. I would imagine some restriction on poison creation difficulty would need to be accounted for when this process occurs, or else a rogue could simply Minotaur Hero's Brew, Solsctice Robe, or Sickle up the skill.

That's a little more specific about my vision for the future of "Apply Poison."

EDIT:

When offering the ability to use rogue poisons to all classes, I see the rogues prime advantage in that they should be able to "conserve" theire use (have a chance to not burn up a dose or charge when used by a rogue). The effect on the NPC by the individual poison application should be the same, regardless of who uses it. This would minimize the rogue's adventure power from becoming too great too fast, which might otherwise force the developers to later rescind any improvements to the effects, which are also sorely needed at this time.

[arryl]

Actually, you have it kind of backwards there.

Poison-MAKING is a tradeskill, and should remain Rogue only.

hehe, sorry to get semantic on this, as i don't disagree w/the essence of your comments, reason i have the question of it being a "trade" skill, is simply because of the class restriction... with the exception of the previously mentioned augments, rogue products are useable only by rogues, no other tradeskill has this particular narrow limitation, certain products from various tradeskills may indeed have "limitations", be it level (as is the case with a number of alchemy potions), or a range of classes (such as leather armor).

i was not proposing that the skill to make poisons should be expanded to other classes, anymore than i would say that limiting alchemy to shamans or tinkering to gnomes should be altered... merely saying, if it's a tradeskill, then it should be allowed to be an item of trade.

that alone, is the element that i question. and yes, though i do not have a character that is affected by the issue, for what it is worth, or not, would be happy to see poison making receive the kind of attention that has recently been given to alchemy as a whole (and i do think that the changes for that will eventually shake out to being a genuine improvement) and to tradeskills in general with the recent revamp of the trophy system.

[Nolrog]

if it's a tradeskill, then it should be allowed to be an item of trade.

Ah, but it is an item of trade. You can sell your poisons to anyone else in Norrath, however only other rogues can actually use them, hence your target customer base is rather limited.

[Zaltak]

Increase the drops and or the yields on all PoP subcombines for the love of GOD!:-P

[halcea]

The actual mechanics of non-rogue usable poisons are already in the game if such a change were to be made. There are already two varieties of poison, those which are applied using a check against the Apply Poison skill and those which are not. Old world poisons require a rogue to sit down and make a check against apply poison, New world poisons are click from inventory and act as proc buffs. Any poison that was to be usable by any class other than rogue could simply follow the new world poison model.

Poisonmaking as a skill should be primarily to the benefit of rogues as in the big picture of things poisons are a very roguely tool and I really wouldn't expect to see paladins the world over rushing to the rogue's guild to stock up on the latest unsavory brews to overcome his foes. I would like to see the vast majority of poisons remain rogue only, restoring usefullness and lethality to what has always been a very interesting skill.

As far as marketablility, I would like to see some good old fashioned useful but not incredibly powerful proc buff poisons available to all. Things that are nice to have to fill gaps like a 75-150 point dd proc or other kinds of effects that one might find on a level appropriate weapon aug from your friendly DoN vendor. A seperate line of rogue only (trade secret poisions so to speak) should offer a broader variety of effects similar to the old world poison line and offer substantially more potent results than what the everyday non-rogue might be able to find on the open market. These poisons could still remain tradeable amongst rogues.

Thanks to all for input and ideas on this topic!

[Buns]

AA to do multiple triv sub-combines in one combine. 5 10 20 tiers would be nice.

[likenew]

a rather large chunk of poisons are no drop, thought everyone should know ;-)

[gildana]

From another post I just made:

A summary about poisons that doesn't ramble for a lot more space. No farming greens; less resists; more damage; 2 types is ok, 1 buff, 1 instant; minimal subcombines; reflects source mob difficulty; reflects rarity of source ingredient; additional utilization (ranged? usable by others? see alchemy); Not considered as base class functionality (DPS > all); stackable (consider what GMAS takes vs. a bearskin potion bag); poison made damage augs for weapons?; poison antidotes?

[Wanyen]

Mass Celestial Essence (Enc Spell ~ Level 49) -- Yield 20 would be wonderful.

[Maevenniia]

No.

Celestial essence is made by a tradeskill combine, not by an Enchanter spell. You would be creating something from nothing, (mana is renewable, esp in the guildhall hottub), nmacro-botters would jump all over this and sell Chanter-made CEs to NPC merchants for free unlimited plat...

[Wanyen]

I didnt say it wouldn't use consumables. It should. It should use a stack of Scent of Marr, to keep it simple, and of course the stack of celestial solvent.

Does celestial essence sell for profit to NPC individually now? If so, that would be a bug, would it not?

I realize it can't be done via a mixing bowl, since it is obviously limited to 4 slots. But 1 per is tedium. 2 Per wouldnt be much better.

[Fonceur]

Cultural drops for GM aren't so bad, the drops for Masters seems much worse to me, at least for the augments.

As someone else pointed out, you have not tried making silk armor... On The Rathe, in a year I have seen a maximum of 12 coarse spider silk in the bazaar.. I bought 6 of those and failed the legging combine I tried... The other 6 were just too highly priced at 45k a pop for an item with a 40% failure rate that requires 6... In that same time, there has been thousands (ten's, hundreds of thousands?) of metallic drake scales and glossy drake hide... Hopefully that will be fixed by the summer... I mean it's only a 3 expansion old issue...