Fan Faire Discussion Topics

[likenew]

was directed to this thread from safehouse to speak of rogue poisons

a) resists way too high, especially for the one shot only poisons

b) one shot only poisons need to become stackable

c) why should it take an hour just to farm the 1 regentx2 make 1 one shot only poison thats trivial mid 200 and will be resisted if used?

d) dd and dot damage on poisons need to be upped 5x, for both one shot and proc poisons, if for no other reason but because of the extreme rarity of the regents that only we can use and only benefit us, but also for there high resist rates

e) if you gave every class an apply poison skill(even though this skill is meaningless to proc poisons), there could possibly be a market for some* of these poisons and a reason to actually make them, though of course alchemy will forever warp any kind of possibly market poisons could ever have.

f) there should be new versions of one shot and proc poisons, from slows snares and debuffs, to dots nukes and deagro procs, there are tons and tons of poisons out there that could be useful, but aren't for a variety of reasons, i'm sure you've heard them all including the ones i've written in this post already.

g) there needs to be more vendor bought regents to make poisons.

h) the regents that drop off of mobs need to drop way way way WAY more often then they do currently(ie the hour to make a single one shot dose comment^^).

i) to go with g and h, the regents that drop off of mobs can be for making poisons that are stronger then those of there vendor counterparts. ie, vendor bought poison makes a 400 dd proc or a 50% slow for 40 seconds, farmed regent versions make a 800 dd proc or a 60% slow for 60 seconds. to further, our most used slow is spine break, its vendor bought, 50% slow(and snare) lasts 40 seconds. there are 2 more versions of it greater from farming green conned mobs for hours, only difference is they last for 80 seconds and 120 seconds, same resists, and all can fade after a second. there should be a min set duration on some of these, with exception of it being overwritten by a greater slow(it also gets overwritten by a greater snare...sk and nec, but i'm pretty sure overwrites dru and rng, don't know about other classes snare)

j) to go along with what was said in i about spine break, there are also versions of poisons that are just slow and just snare. the snare is vendor bought spirit of sloth. the slow is a proc from regents fished up in nadox i believe, 35% slow. though i've only used that slow proc one for small session...made a stack...i didn't notice a difference between slowed and unslowed verson of that mob when it procced. j is just informative =-)

if you go to safehouse you'll see many discussions with even more input on rogue poisons and how worthless they are right now. its a shame how neglected they have been, as poisons would be the only utility a rogue would ever need(no more mez screw ups plz, was an idea from a chanter that we get it!) if poisons got fixed then dev's could focus on our other needs, dps and stealth, not meaning to rant on a tradeskill board about those but they too have been greatly neglected.

and another idea, traps would be a better idea if they were tradeskill based. could be both shm and rog made, or a combination of both. could be used by the majority of classes, but each possible trap made have a certain classes tag. ie, rogues could use any possible trap, wizards could use magical dd traps, paladin's stun traps, sk/nec lifetap/dot type traps etc. these would be based on poisons and alchemy, as you would need both for a finish product...or i spose either or. lots of idea's to make these traps usable in this game, as they currently are not in the least bit.

end of post.

late edit

and above all else, this tradeskill issue should be kept far and away seperate from our other class needs, as we have much more pressing issues then poisons.

[Kruzar]

I have to show support to my breatheren rogues and beg the rest of the tradeskill community to help us in our fight to get a revamp to poisons. Poisons are so troublesome to make and to gain components that many rogues do not even bother with the skill. I have taken the time to work on this skill, but I have seen almost no return for the investment. Our components are very hard to obtain with very few vendor bought components. The number of combines for a single skillup is atrocious and then who do we sell to.. well there is almost zero bazaar market and vendors will buy them for a loss. Some poisons require us to undertake an extremly long quest in order to make them, and then we have the same issue of no profitable return on the time investment. There are so many ways these items could be corrected and it would benefit other players. There have been mentioned saleable products which can be used by other players, special augments, and the like.. Any of these advancements would help the player base as a whole and would give life to an almost dead tradeskill.

[arryl]

i see quite a few good ideas being tossed about in this thread, as my menagerie of characters practices all trade skills w/the exception of poisons. just as a thought, perhaps making recipes for other tradeskills that use poisons, as tinkering will use smithed components, etc. or making it possible for rogue poisons to be applied to weapons used by other than rogues (so the rest of us can get in on some of that sky high dps

as to the issue of drops... yes please, more tradeskill goodies, more often (i can think of a couple pages involved in researched spells....) an edit on this part.... not meaning to instigate a fire here... as tradeskills are one of the few avenues that one can enjoy without being in a raiding guild, i wouldn't mind seeing the issue of drops being taken even further... not asking for rare components to drop from skellies in the noob area, but... would genuinely appreciate it if any component used for tradeskills at least had a chance of dropping in an area that didn't require more than a reasonable level group to obtain, not gonna complain if it is less frequent than in an uber raid zone, just would like a chance.. on the subject of rare drops... been trying to help a friend get his paws on lightning cores in mpg (now there is a drop rate that could be upped a tad... please)

my best idea tho... be nice to Ngreth seems fairly obvious we tradeskillers have a genuinely sympathetic ear on the dev team, so... don't think our bouts with carpal tunnel aren't understood...

to those of you lucky enough to be going, may your alcohol tolerance be up to the task, don't let us down

[likenew]

not asking for rare components to drop from skellies in the noob area

the poison i was talking about in my long post was indeed from a mob in a newb area. stiffening ergot, its a 120 second 50% slow with a uh 60% snare with it(combo poison). its our longest lasting best kunark slow. the 2 regents that need farming are heartsting venom sacks. 2 of those plus a vial and suspension. those venom sacks drop in field of bone...off a heartsting scorpian, which is a very rare spawn, and the sacks that drop are an ultra rare drop. which is why it took an hour to get those 2 sacks to make 1 combine. which i've heard stories of 3 hours to get enough for 1 combine..

all the poisons i can think of drop ultra rarely off of rare spawning trivial mobs, up until pop of course when it went through a mini revamp and new poisons from then on became proc buffs. there are very few poisons that can be made solely from vendors, to be honest spirit of sloth and spine break are the only 2 i know of, and are the most used of course, tied with our ornate pants clicky poison(which gives us a bunch more agro we don't need). after the mini-revamp, poison regents then began to only drop off of mobs you needed a group to kill(we should all know by now rogues are horrid soloers even with ubertastic gear). though, that was short lasted because only god and oow brought new poisons to the table. as well, since the revamp, the new clicky proc buff poisons aren't of great variety. there are 1-2 dd procs, 3-4 dot procs, 1-2 antiagro procs, and 1-2 dd/stun/spin(i guess) procs each in god and oow. old world poisons had quite a variety, debuff dd, dot, slow, snare, several combo ones, bane ones for animal plant undead, etc. the list goes on. surprisingly though no lifetap ones and of course there are several several typo's on the poisons stating that they do some insane amounts like 1300 or 1600, when really its 100 or 125...

some rogues like the old world poisons(single dose 1 shot ones), some like the buff proc ones(somewhat). i think both serve there function. the old world poisons go off on the first hit guarenteed, though with resists on poisons its also a guarenteed resist ;-). while new world proc buff poisons need a bit of luck, cuz they are procs after all. now, we can't just change all old world ones into new proc buffs. but, the old world ones do need to be stackable. the ability to get that slow off on the first hit is crucial for a rogue to solo something they deem of moderate difficulty. its how many a rogues go about getting there masks if they still desire them just to have, not all rogues can solo in ssra or chardok with ease =-) but this also can become a great bane as well, being as they are a one shot deal, you need to cross your fingers that it doesn't get resisted, because you need to sit down to use another(which also shouldn't happen). maybe, at the very least, there could be a combo poison made to go off on the first hit like old world, but also be a proc after and for the remainder of the fight? would be quite difficult i know, but really its quite in line with what a poisoned dagger would be like, every time your stabbed or slashed by it you get more poisoned...

i do like your other idea though, which i was trying to say earlier...make it so that poisons are needed for other tradeskills. i think the oow augs were a step in the right direction with that, but were poorly implemented because of such ultra rare drops, along with base augs that really just weren't that good, and lost there market all together by the start of the next expansion(yet prices remained high even with only rare buyers). at best, they are the types of augs that i'd want to twink my 52 cleric with, but, i don't feel like spending 5 mil plat to do it, and i'm not suicidal enough to farm that many augs and regents.

much of your first paragraph arryl, were on my list of things needed to be done with the poison system =-) though the sky high dps part made me giggle lol. most rogues really don't use poisons all too often, due to high resist rates, ultra rare regents from rare spawning hard to find mobs, or dropping in zones needing a full group to farm it(just take rs for example, tons of regents drop there, tongues drop off of like every pyrilen, while the rest of the regents needed for that poison drop off every 100th other mob no group is going to farm regents just to serve a rogues purpose, and no rogue really even cares because the poisons just aren't very good at all). i can tell you one thing though =-) poisons don't add anything to our sky high dps =-) the mobs backs do, but thats becoming a fading memory too =-)(whole nother post on another board =-)).

sorry for another long post

[arryl]

no group is going to farm regents just to serve a rogues purpose

that comment really illustrates what i would love to see in tradeskills as much as any. i like seeing the evolution of EQ, some aspects of change occasionally have me grinding molars, but i have only to remind myself that one size does not fit all. in the early days of norrath, the concept was based on grouping, this morphed into raiding. also in the early days, tradeskills were an important aspect of the economy (banded armor was actually desireable

while i would not care to see raiding nerfed by any means, i really think that tradeskills could easily become a genuine focal point for grouping. both by the introduction of items that required components from various tradeskills (a bunch of the luclin quests took this approach) and by having drops that require or at least encourage grouping to obtain. one possible avenue might be having some of these "rares" that may currently only drop in raid zones, appear in ldons (serving a dual purpose of both component source, and making ldons a tad more meaningful than they seem to be anymore).

as to poisons not being the magic bullet for dps.... sigh, ya can't blame me for at least tryin' to sneak it through, not like i'm trying to encourage an exploit

[Sidiousness]

Just to add a bit more.

I have been making poisons for along time now. When i first started doing it it was alot of fun. It also added a different twist to my class. It gave me more ability to solo and do more on my own but at a cost. I had to farm...alot. Ok farming is not so bad but then you find alot of these componets dont drop and are rare at best. Over all after working my way to 250 pre DoN getting my GM trophy and my GMAS(Grand Master Assasin's Seal, used for making 10 dose poisons). I found that the poisons I had enjoyed making were more and more of a pain and alot less rewarding.

Basically it comes down to this. There is only a few poisons that we make effectively that work regularly for the time we put into farming. To list the few on my shopping list that seem to do great for the time put in.

1) Kinestetic Suppressant - Farmed component is Basalisk Eyestalk, Its listed as a 50% slow 95% snare. Do to the fact that these old world poisons are not stackable. I stopped making these because to be effective i need to have a good supply carry a morter and pestle on you at all times and do combines after every kill to be ready for the next. Now when soloing this might not be so bad. But, when i am soloing im farming and to keep my bags full of items to make a poison that slows i have no room for the items im farming.

2) Mangled Tendon - Farmed componets Plague mites and dust of decay,This is a strength debuffer and hate reducer that is a 15min buff proc(can be 10 dosed). Nothing all that spectacular accept when your a Rogue you want to be the last on hate list. This has been the only poison i have found to work on Raid Targets. Every other poison i have ever tried on a raid target gets the usual Resist/Immune message.

3) Bite of Shissar - Farmed componets Tainted Planar Essence and Phosphorus Powder, This is my favorite to use on trash mobs. Its a buff proc that lasts 15 mins and procs 125DD poison dmg(Can be 10 dosed). This is the worst poison to ever use on a named mob or a raid boss will always get the resist or immune.

4) Spine Rend - Farmed componet crystalized sulphur, This is a 30% snare that has a very short timer on it(Can be 10dosed). Prolly the most effective of our snares that i have found for the time we put into farming. All it does is stop those runing mobs from moving at low htpts.

Now here is the point im trying to make. We have 100's of highly useful poisons. and ide mostlikely make them all. But, Do to low availability of farmed componets time involved and no place to put all the old world poisons(Old World Poisons don't stack nor do they work on a potion belt). So it has limited me in what im willing to make as this is the same with majority of the rogue community.

Now what I would like to see.

1) Availability of farmed componets to be raised. Making OoW poisons for the first time was a Royal Pain in the A$$. I spent tons of time vendor diving farming and searching the baz. Only to find that these items rarely drop and is hard to find on vendors cause of rarity. So i checked the bazaar and there i find people want 100-200pp at minimum a piece these are items that only rogues can use. The benefits are not great enough to pay that kind of money for it nor waiste the time farming and vendor diving for super rare items.

2) Add a market for other players to beable to use them. Not saying allow them to use our best poisons ofcorse. But something that would add or enhance others game play enough that they would be interested in using them.

3) Dont change but make Old world Poisons stackable and make them able to be put on a potion belt. I dont care if clicking that potion belt mid fight makes me sit for a sec or two atleast i have an easy click to reapply a slow if need be or what ever. No matter what the change may be Do Not eliminate the need to do the GMAS quest. That is one of the better rogue quests in game. It also does alot in defining who we are. The 10 dose system works just fine. If there was a way to goto 20 dose even better. All im saying is that if you follow our story line doing the quest for GMAS is a big part of being a rogue.

4) Make poisons have less of a chance to be resisted so that people do have the desire to use them. Out of all the poisons i have used my high end hate reducer is the only reliable one.

5) Add more yeild to the poisons that are really rare drops and very hard to farm or obtain. Instead of getting one from a combine make it 2-5 depending. I believe cause i only made the OoW poisons one time that they did yield 2 per combine. This is an awesome step in the right direction. But still like i said after hours of farming vendor diving and searching baz. It is not worth the time nor plat involved.

6) This one is not to step on any ones toes(Mainly Shaman). But i honestly think that SOE made a huge mistake giving shaman thrown Poisons. This really upset me when DoN came out. The ones I refer to would be the snares and stuns. These "Poisons" are the same things I have been making for years.
There is only one difference and that is they are ranged. I could of understood them making a ranged healing potion or something on the line of alchemy. For say if someone in my grp is low on htpts and i happen to have a thrown healing potion X that heals 1200 dmg. Looky here i may not be a healer but i just saved my bud's life. But when they did this I along with majority of the Rogue community was baffled that they would put something with poison effects in the wrong hands.

I do also think that ranged poisons are somthing that can be expanded on as to making different types wether they be thrown debuff, slows, nukes, dots could even make snares with a hate reducer for monks. But if you do so keep in mind what is considered thrown Poisons and what should be considered thrown Potions.

I have my mind fairly full atm and can keep typing but gonna stop so not to bore any of you true tradeskillers.

Sidiousness <70th Rogue on Povar>

[Blaydh]

Short story on poisons: They need to be addressed, badly!

• Fix the issues with poisons being resisted - #1 issue - nothing else matters unless the poison can actually LAND!
  
• Give us some way to make more with less reagents, possibly including:

1. Endless Pestle - similar to endless quiver for rangers, keeps the rarity of drops the same. (preferred option)
2. Increase the yield per combine.
3. Increase the drop rate of components.
4. Increase the doseable size to 20 with a simple adjustment to the size of coffin bottles.

I don't want them to be marketable. Poison is a class skill and one of the last refuges we have, and it should stay that way.

[KyrosKrane]

Fix bazaar ports -- too slow and susceptible to lag.

[Flehmen]

I'd like to second the idea of adding more farmable, yet instanced, components to LDoN... or adding rare drops to instances that are available to all. Even if it is just one "rare drop" on one random mob for every instance. (That should be mostly a DB change, not a code change) We'd have to make a list of rares that would be a good choice.

The goal of this change would be to provide for people who can't raid, and are not up in lvl enough to farm high lvl zone be able to try and get components(and in the process get XP and gear to get into those higher lvl zones) to further their tradeskills. I *really* hate that you have to be 60+ in order to be able to reasonibly get many skills up. I don't mind if it is a slow as one drop every LDoN or MM... it's something to do in spare time. Yet another goal to bring groups back to LDoNs and previous instances. (It also has the advantage of not forcing any higher lvls back to LDoN/whatever except potentially shrouded with friends.)

Just a thought.

[Wanyen]

Three concerns regarding poison, aside from details of implementation and nuances with era-specific mechanics.

1. Resists overall are generally too high [especially if it's a first considered a tradeskill].

2. Is the primary intention to be a class-skill, tradeskill, or some hybrid of both? This is crucial for moving forward with any other changes beyond resist rates.

3. Dose vs charge. I am pretty confident in assuming that poisons will also be changed from charged to dosed, due to the reasoning behind the alchemy charge-to-dose conversion. Coffin bottles and Black marble morter and pestle (and all quests and that rely on the products of these items) should be retroactively changed to something more appropriate or useful when the change occurs.


If it's intended to be a class-skill which is used as a class-balance and utility issue, limited in function to only rogues, drop, don't simply reduce, the necessity of farming and money sinks from the feature entirely. Make them "spell-like" and put them in our "spell-book". Retroactively add a vast number of "spells" up to the skill level the rogue has already attained.

If it's intended to be a tradeskill, the market needs to be opened up to other classes to use the products of our efforts. And the effects of the products have to be nominally more useful in most situations than counterparts produced merely at a mana-cost without any other sort of reagent cost.

If it's more of a hybrid of both, which I expect is the intention and would prefer for future direction, then both aspects, class and trade utility/cost, should be addressed in considerable detail.

To address part of the class aspect of poison from a hybrid between class and a tradeskill, there should be reduction in consumables via a conservation to the point of "free" poisons. For instance, if the poison "scoriae bite" is applied/consumed 50 or 100 or 200 times by a rogue, the effect should become a permanent learned part of the arsenal and not requiring of future reagent consumption in order to use that poison (100 percent conservation for that specific poison, or utilize a global conservation bonus via a revitalized 'apply poison', such that apply gives a bonus to conservation, but has, as it currently does, no effect on success of failure of application ). Ideally, the quantity of applications required to learn it should be in some way related to rarity (with respects not to potential drop rate, but actual components looted on a server -- if no one is hunting certain zones or mob-types that drop a specific component, it should be easier to remember how to conserve the poison). Furthermore, AA's to extend duration and potency of effects where applicable should be added, and if the AA's do not take us near the 100% conservation, allow existing focus effects from items to further enhance the conservation. I would strongly disapprove of creating a separate poison conservation focus. Perhaps, the GMAS effect, which will be relegated after charge-to-dose conversation could be changed to some special, high-percentage reagent conservation focus which reduces consumption.

With regard to the tradeskill aspect of poison from a hybrid of class and tradeskill, some ideas worthy of consideration have already been mentioned (both here and the other usual forums), but ultimately, poisonmakers must have the same access to product markets that all other tradeskills do -- meaning any class should be able to use most poisons most of the time. Even at that point, we'll still be at a slight disadvantage due to stacking issues with especially snare, slow, and poison-oriented dot casters. Because of this, I would ask that in addition to other ideas, rogue poisons be considered for a move to a different slot with respect to cast slows, snares, and dots so that their already marginal usefulness will not be so easily negated upon application. This has been done with certain spell effects already, such as miraculous visions and other self-buff item hastes with respects to enchanter/shaman/bard haste.

[Sidiousness]

Ok lets see...

1) I agree with.

2) I was with ya till you got to the whole hybrid part then i got lost. My feelings on poison is it has always been very similar to Potions just on more of a detrimental side. Wether they be usable by Rogues only or made usable by all has still been up in the air. If you look back on majority of the old world poisons they have always been all/all only one problem other players lack the apply poison skill. Only thing apply poison skill does is lower the amt of it takes to apply poison. If you check the more complex rogue poisons you will find them to have Rogue only on them.

3) You lost me from the beginning. Sounds like your looking to rewrite the whole class and not sure what you want as a finished product.

Overall thanks for the insight we need all we can get.


Sidiousness <70th Rogue on Povar>

[Maevenniia]

Hmmm

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to be getting the impression that the Rogues have an issue with Poisonmaking....

[Sidiousness]

What makes ya think that...

I do think that Jewelcraft and Pottery is working to my expectations.

Sidousness <70th Rogue on Povar>

[Wanyen]

Ok lets see...

1) I agree with.

2) I was with ya till you got to the whole hybrid part then i got lost. My feelings on poison is it has always been very similar to Potions just on more of a detrimental side. Wether they be usable by Rogues only or made usable by all has still been up in the air. If you look back on majority of the old world poisons they have always been all/all only one problem other players lack the apply poison skill. Only thing apply poison skill does is lower the amt of it takes to apply poison. If you check the more complex rogue poisons you will find them to have Rogue only on them.

3) You lost me from the beginning. Sounds like your looking to rewrite the whole class and not sure what you want as a finished product.

Overall thanks for the insight we need all we can get.


Sidiousness <70th Rogue on Povar>

RE: #2

Poison is not a purely a class skill, even though it's limited to a single class. It has a consumable upkeep per use. No other class is in that situation for their key, class-defining skills, save pet classes, consume reagents to use their key skills. With pet classes, their reagents are cheap, generally vendor available, and have opportunities via itemization and AA to conserve their consumption. Furthermore they have focuses to improve stats and ability of their reagent consuming skill/spell. The relationship between shaman and alchamy, gnomes and tinkering, and int-casters and research is that the class and race are balanced independantly of the associated class or race limited skill. Rogues are not. Poison has always been in the discussion when considering rogues in the appropriate power and utility band of the class spectrum, so if it is to be defined and considered a class skill, it must be brought inline with other class skills by virtually eliminating the cost, time gathering, and time skilling to use.

Poison is not a purely trade skill. There is essentially no market. Neither for products or for resources required to make the product. This is partly due to inadequate strength or utility. Also to a lesser but important extent -- class-independant access to the product. Poisonmakers go through all the same motions as other trades (even if at a fraction of cost or time), but are not offered the opportunity to provide their wares to all classes. Even if it were simply opened up for use by all classes, there would not be a huge rush to use what can currently be produced, as the same or similar effect can be had for free from a variety classes. While technically possible to sell to other rogues, it doesnt happen except in rare cases of needing it for an odd-quest -- like tainted avalanche ale for the now essentially antiquated dain ring quest. In order to be a viable "trade", there has to be a wide-market. And the utility the product provides has to be good, no, better than alternatives (spells) of comparable level.

[arryl]

Hmmm

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to be getting the impression that the Rogues have an issue with Poisonmaking....

Hmmm... nah, i don't think it's just you.

Being as i don't have a Rogue, and never have tried one... i of course have particular insight on the issues here

as i see it, appears that a few ideas may be worth at least bouncing off the devs:

is poison making a "tradeskill", or a class combat skill? if the former, then it would make sense for poisons to be made available for use by other classes. methinx it would need to be done very carefully so's not to unduly create yet another "class balance uproar", a possible approach might be along the lines of requiring a rogue to actually apply the poison (whether to a blade, shuriken, or whatever), and probably making that application "no-rent", meaning, need to have a rogue in the group/raid to utilize the feature. (i understand that poisons are something that needs to be "refreshed" for each mob, am just thinking of the possibility of treating a stack of throwing weapons for pulling). if it is to be strictly a class combat skill (as seems to be the actual case, with the exception of the augments), then you certainly have my "vote" that the majority of components become available from vendors, or at least, far more common as drops.

continuing with the tradeskill "definition", i still think that finding ways of combining that skill with others could open the way for some interesting player crafted items, fletching would be a natural (poison, stun, etc. as others have mentioned), for tailoring, possibly a component that would impart ds characteristics.

my quick summary, after rambling on... either be a tradeskill, in which case, the scope should be widened, or a class utility, in which case, yes, it seems to be way out of proportion in difficulty for it's intended utility.