Forage question

[Qaladar Bragollach]

From a role playing point of view... what the smack is the difference between a groundspawn and a forage????

Everyone can pick up groundspawns... in my mind that IS foraging. So why have 2 different methods one of which is restricted to certain classes and races??

[Itek]

First, let me say, I'd buy Forage AA. And pay pretty much any price for it. On at LEAST two non-forage toons.

Two, I have -taught- wilderness survival. Yes, anyone in the real world can learn to forage.

Three, yes it -is- possible to find water in the desert.

Four, I'm less sure about bunny rabbits.

Five, I will buy your "this is how it works in real life so why doesn't it in the game" type arguement.... One second AFTER you raise the dead. Heck, I'll settle for 'animate dead' where you just make a skeleton servant from the bones of someone's granny.

If you wanna ask for forage, ask. But you're not gonna give a sufficient REASON for them to do it based on logic.

True Story Time: Back when I was a Guide I actually had one joker, who WAS serious, petition... He wanted to know when SOE/Verant was gonna give him credit for the idea of horses in the game. That conversation got... awkward.

Itek: No, really? You had the idea for using horses as transportation first?

Itek: Hmm, well you see, humans have used horses and other animals for transportation for thousands of years, so it seems like the idea is 'public domain' by now if you get my meaning....

Itek: Seriously, the idea for a 'horse' is used in other games released before EQ, was discussed in Beta, and has been brought up nearly every month, if not WEEK in the discussion boards...

[GnekroeGnomicon]

Five, I will buy your "this is how it works in real life so why doesn't it in the game" type arguement.... One second AFTER you raise the dead. Heck, I'll settle for 'animate dead' where you just make a skeleton servant from the bones of someone's granny.

Thought it was appropriate http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117...-13762,00.html

[Neebat]

Forage is a class-defining ability (as defined by Sony) which is actually the real reason it's restricted to certain classes. I'm happy to discuss the role-play reasons for forage being restricted, but I don't think this will ever have any impact on the game.

From a role playing point of view... what the smack is the difference between a groundspawn and a forage????

There's a lot of abstraction going on when you hit that forage button. It implies some real work and understanding on the part of the forager:
1. Your character sets/checks traps for small animals (hence bunny meat)
2. Your character digs a bit to uncover roots
3. Your character examines the nearby foliage for edible bits.
4. Your character makes like a survivalist type does to find water in a desert.
(I've seen a diagram of a water trap, but it's sure not something done instantly at any moment.)

In real life, anyone can learn that, but in EverQuest, the all-powerful Class Guilds restrict knowledge to members. Most of the skill involved in locating potentially useful stuff in nature are "trade secrets" of the guilds. Sure, anyone can pick up an acorn, once word got out that acorns were useful, and that's why we have ground spawns. Ground spawns are things whose secret is out. They are readilly apparent to the non-forager.

By now my ranger knows what's useful and what's not. To me, the real question is why, knowing all that, he keeps picking up green goo and RUST in PoI?!?

A more complete system for forage would work entirely by ground spawns, but make each ground spawn visible only to certain races and classes. So your shaman could spot the components with the right spiritual essense to become potions. My gnome could recognize slimy secretions with the right consistency to grease a bearing. An ogre would recognize darn near any kind of naturally occuring food. (Excluding hobbits, because they tend to raise a ruckus when stuffed in a pack.) Of course, dwarves could spot wild hops and fermented sap. Even then, ranger/druid types would still spot the widest variety of valuable plants and animals.

As it is, they've just simplified all those different recognition and gathering skills into a single button press. Darn programmers and their abstraction!

[Qaladar Bragollach]

As it is, they've just simplified all those different recognition and gathering skills into a single button press. Darn programmers and their abstraction!

Therein lies my problem... the result is unsatisfying.

If I'm standing next to a lake why do I have to be a druid to get some fricking water??

Everyone should have some forage skill... with nature type classes simply being better at it not having a monopoly on it.

[mewkus]

Probably for the same reason that some classes are not able to use some weapons, or wear some armors. I mean, it's just a pair of frickin' boots, why can't my enchanter wear Boots of the Storm?

The answer is that SoE divides up who can use certain skills, wear certain armors, wield certain weapons among the different classes in an attempt to balance everything out. While a rogue gets the ability to sneak around undetected and a druid doesn't, druids are given the ability to locate seeds on the ground that a rogues eyes are not trained to spot.

[Qaladar Bragollach]

I can totally understand artifical limitations for reasons of balancing classes combat abilities. I don't see that that applies to foraging.

[Strokker]

An ogre would recognize darn near any kind of naturally occuring food. (Excluding hobbits, because they tend to raise a ruckus when stuffed in a pack.)

But they make the most satisfying squeeling crunch sound when you bite into them....Yum

[Itek]

Be.... Cause...

The reason is, that's the way it is, that's the reason.

No. Really. Because.

"I don't see..."

Yes. You do. You don't LIKE it. But you do SEE it. You dont' AGREE with it. But, and let's be straight-forward here, your AGREEMENT with it is NOT required.

As I said before, many times, and say again, I'd LOVE to see Forage opened up at an AA cost to non-current foragers. (And I -do- play, as does my wife, foragers.)

But almost all foragers DO NOT want to share, and realisticly they don't and shouldn't have to.

"I'm standing next to the lake, why can't I get water."

And the warrior is standing around in a world surrounded by mana... why can't he learn to cast a healing spell?

It's poison not rocket science. (Pretty sharp learning curve when learning to make and apply poison in real life though.)

Stick the pointy end in the soft part of the mob, why can't you get it straight?

Look, here's a book, "learn guitar in 20 lessons" and I expect you to twist 3 songs by the raid next week.

The point is fairly well made, I think, that you CANNOT learn to do EVERYTHING with each character. If there is a significant lack in your life due to forage, there are a multitude of characters and races available to correct the defficiency.

To reiterate. Forage AA I'd support and buy. But I don't think it will happen soon. (I'd say "ever" but 9th spell slot and corpse summoners happened....)

[Qaladar Bragollach]

If everyone has your pessimist attitude of course it won't change.
Using your same examples, many naysayers said we would never get a 9th spell slot, it was absolutely out of the question, that was the way it was and we had to deal with it whether we liked it or not, etc. etc. etc.

It changed.

So could forage.

[Itek]

Am I being UNCLEAR in some manner?

Then please allow me to MAKE A CLARIFICATION abundantly clear.

I am IN FAVOR of OPEN AA FORAGE SKILL FOR EVERYONE!!

But there is a huge difference between "we would like to put AA Forage skill in General on the list of possible improvements" and "everyone should be able to learn Forage because that's how the real world works."

Are You being DELIBERATELY OBTUSE when you say ...

I can totally understand artifical limitations for reasons of balancing classes combat abilities. I don't see that that applies to foraging.

Combat ability and non-combat ability have no distinction. And I -clearly- outline this in my previous replies about poison making, etc. Why couldn't, using real life as an example, a football player become an accountant? So therefore an ogre warrior should be able to learn spell research.

BULL-HONKEY!

My -entire point- is that if you want Forage go ahead and ask for it. But there's not a chunk of ice's chance in PoHate of SOE suddenly falling into the "this is how it works in real life" trap in a game where people fling around ICE COMET, and the dead not only walk and talk, but after you kill them... they come back in 20 minutes to be killed again.

You want a SKILL-BASED game, but, and I hate to break it to you, EQ is a CLASS-BASED game.

People begged for extra spell slots for 5 years. We finally got one. How long will spell slot 10 take (because sure enough, about an hour after I had a 9th slot I started thinking about a tenth) I dunno. Mounts took what 3 years? Second tradeskill over 200 was a while in coming.

Buying and selling stacks of items....

If you want it ask, the least they can do is say no. And they have. But you can ask again.

Bart and Lisa: Can we have a pool dad?
Homer: No.
Bart and Lisa: Can we have a pool day?
Homer: No.
Bart and Lisa: Can we have a pool dad?
Bart and Lisa: Can we have a pool dad?
Bart and Lisa: Can we have a pool dad?
Bart and Lisa: Can we have a pool dad?
Bart and Lisa: Can we have a pool dad?
Bart and Lisa: Can we have a pool dad?

Please remember who your friends are, because openly asking for Forage to be given away is a fast way to make enemies on these boards. (Though as Alchemy now requires incredibly rare foraged components for highly useful potions I think you may not only gain converts but powerful allies.)

[Qualan]

Let me state this:

Would you like warriors to get port spells?

Would you like rangers to get defensive

Would you like wizards to be able to wear plate

Would you like shaman to get Manaburn?


The same goes for foraging. Some races can forage and some can't. Some classes can forage better than others within those races.

I see a disturbing trend to make the differences between races and classes smaller. I just would like the distinctive abilities and roles of reaces/classes to get more pronounced and would not advocate any more blurring of lines than already done and would prefer some of those to be undone.

If i wanted to play a game that is easy i would have chosen one that is easier. The dumbing down of eq will eventually make me drop it because i might as well go play WoW or some other game on the same level.

Less is betetr because it makes people make choices and NEEDING to interact to progress.

[Yammez]

I couldn't agree more with Itek. Real world + EQ = nada! Hell, I didn't even like when they let everyone have direction finding maxed out at level 1 hehe. ****, keep the game interesting, stop dumbing it down, and stop patronizing all these whining brats who would, ultimately, like to be able to enter cheat codes so they can enter PoTime when they first buy the game. Trust me, earning abilities is MUCH more rewarding than handouts by the devs. I would prefer things to get tough.....not easier!

[Verdandi]

Okay people, this has nothing to do with tradeskills anymore. I'd move it to PSR except that insults and yelling at one another don't belong there either.