Geerlok question

[GnekroeGnomicon]

Can someone give me the run down of why at any point a Geerlok or bonus percentage is actually a bad thing? I have read posts that allude to a point where a geerlok isn't benefitting you - could someone take the topic and explain it a little more in depth?

[Prelgor]

/boggle You've got me there.

It's possible that, at high skill, you might already have the maximum possible success rate, even without a geerlok. For example, suppose you attempt a combine with a 222 trivial with a raw skill of 212. A geerlok would bring you to a modified skill of 222. However, your raw skill of 212 was already enough to give you a 95% success rate. In this case, I would recommend equipping a stat item instead of a geerlok for the (small) benefit to your skillup chance rather than the useless (in this particular situation) geerlok.

I suppose it is also possible, in other circumstances, that the numbers may work out such that your chance of a skillup is marginally higher with a +LOTS stat item rather than a geerlok. However, this would be a case of opportunity cost, rather than geerloks being bad.

[Oona Wynterbreeze]

Can someone give me the run down of why at any point a Geerlok or bonus percentage is actually a bad thing? I have read posts that allude to a point where a geerlok isn't benefitting you - could someone take the topic and explain it a little more in depth?

It's possible, if these were recent posts you were reading, that these posts were by the people that were so frustrated with the post 280 skill-up rate with a lot of the tradeskills (jewelcraft being a big one) that they were trying to think of any and all possible ways it could be being interferred with. I, ,myself, read a number of posts by people thinking that the geerlok was interfering with there skill-up rate saying things such as "... and as soon as I unequiped it I got x skill-ups ...". People see that and repost elsewhere about not using the geerlok without posting "All" the info involved. Kinda like that little game where you whisper something in someone's ear and have them do the same to someone else. By the time it's gone through fifty ears it's not even close to what it started out as. But this is all just a theory based on what I seen over the past couple months. The posts you saw could be unrelated.

[Tejaye]

Geerloks

Do Geerloks help increase the chance of a skill-up ever?
I dont care about my success rate, I just want the skill-ups.....so does using a Geerlok make a difference?

[mewkus]

There are two instances where one of the geerloks would hurt you is when you're attempting the Cerimonal Solstice Robe (tailoring 252). Successes on the robe cost you a 300ish plat chain, while failures have the chain returned. The second is where it is taking up a slot that is better filled with stat gear. To tell if your situation falls under the latter condition, check the calculator (from main site) to see which configuration gives you a better chance for skill up/success.

Apart from being a bad thing, there also comes a point where the benefit received from a geelok does not increase your chances of success (high skill level versus close or lower trivial combines).

Geerloks don't directly increase your skill up rate, but they do have a secondary effect of increasing your skill up rate. You have a better chance of getting a skill up when you succeed on a combine than when you fail (depending on your stat level).

[Neebat]

Do Geerloks help increase the chance of a skill-up ever?
I dont care about my success rate, I just want the skill-ups.....so does using a Geerlok make a difference?

Generally, YES. Geerloks indirectly increase your chances of skillups by improving your success rate. Succeeding on a combine in many cases DOUBLES your odds of a skill up. The combination of doing combines near your skill level and using a geerlok will give you much higher rate of skillups than you might otherwise get.

http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq/showthread.php?t=22258
In that thread, someone was asking about a bug in this site's calculator. The discussion that followed has a lot of good discussion about the skill up formulas.

Let's talk about the exceptions for a second.

First, if a combine is trivial, then your odds of success go up in discrete steps. It will be 95, 96, 97, 98, 99 or 100%, with no fractional chances in between. To step from 95% to the next rank takes FORTY points of skill. So, for example, this shows the odds of success:

Skill   Trivial   Odds    With Geerlok  Odds
215       215     95%       225         95%  <--- no improvement
215       180     95%       225         96%  <--- BETTER!

That's one case where the geerlok does nothing to help your odds of success. Something similar can happen when your base skill is so low that the geerlok gives you only 1 or 2 points.

Second, the opportunity cost of wielding the geerlok... Geerloks don't have any wis/int/dex/str and you can probably get a primary item that does. Using the geerlok still means more successes, and if you WANT to succceed, you'll still want the geerlok. If you want skillups, you'll have to run the numbers. This one compares a +8 stat item versus a +5% geerlok and the odds shown are the odds of skilling up:

BaseStat  Skill  Trivial  W/Stat    Odds  W/Geerlok  Odds
200 INT    20      32     208 INT   66.8%     21     64.5%  <-- stat item good
200 INT    215    220     208 INT   8.7%     225     8.3%   <-- geerlok good

Third, the oddball recipes that return valuable items when you FAIL but consume them when you succeed. The best examples are Ceremonial Solstice Robes and poisons. Since a failure at poison making means you get the vial to try again, you'd sometimes prefer to FAIL, and try again with the same vial, even though your odds of going up on the failed combine aren't all that good. It's basically a free skillup attempt. The math on these is too creepy for my little tables, but in general, no one uses a geerlok while making Solstice Robes.

[mewkus]

The one percent increase in success rate for every 40 points over trivial looks only at your raw (unmodified) skill. So, the geerlok (and any other % skill increase item) do not help towards that increase.

[Alredhel]

BaseStat  Skill  Trivial  W/Stat    Odds  W/Geerlok  Odds
200 INT    20      32     208 INT   66.8%     21     64.5%  <-- stat item good
200 INT    215    220     208 INT   8.7%     225     8.3%   <-- geerlok good

8.3 < 8.7, so actually in your second example --> stat item still good, er, or am I misunderstanding something here?

-Al

[Ngreth Thergn]

The basicas are...

Geerlok will help when an increases success chance, without stat ajustment helps (Like someone who is max stats with or without their primary)

There is a point when your success chance does not increase, even with a geerlok... then stats will help you better.

It is all a balancing act

[YurienStonebow]

The basicas are...

Geerlok will help when an increases success chance, without stat ajustment helps (Like someone who is max stats with or without their primary)

There is a point when your success chance does not increase, even with a geerlok... then stats will help you better.

It is all a balancing act

basically 200str for a smithing combine is better with a geerlok then without.....right?

[Akishka]

basically 200str for a smithing combine is better with a geerlok then without.....right?

Well, the question is, what are you giving up to get the geerlok? For a long time, my primary slot did not ever have stats that contributed to my primary skill so I always equipped the geerlok - it wasn't like I was losing anything. However, if you are giving up an item that has a large amount of your primary stat, you would again have to play with the numbers and see if its worth it.

[YurienStonebow]

i was actually saying 200 is your str regardless of primary item

[Akishka]

Well but the entire question is based around the choice of your primary item. 200 str is certainly not capped out so there are pros and cons of both a stat item and a geerlok.

If your basic question is 'is it better to use a geerlok than nothing in the primary' then yes.

[mewkus]

easiest way to figure out which configuration is better is to plug the numbers into the site calculator. It'll let you know what your chances of success are and what your chances of skill ups are. then you can choose which you prefer.

[Ngreth Thergn]

we actually needed trivials and curent skill too But here goes

-----------------------------------------------------
Skill 100
Mod None
Trivial 150
Strength 200
Ajusted Skill = 100
Success chance = 39%
Chance of skill up on Success: 50%, on failure: 25%, overall 34.75%

Skill 100
Mod 5% (geerlok)
Trivial 150
Strength 200
Ajusted Skill = 105
Success chance = 44%
Chance of skill up on Success: 50%, on failure: 25%, overall 36%

Geerlok helps

-----------------------------------------------------
Skill 100
Mod None
Trivial 350
Strength 200
Ajusted Skill = 100
Success chance = 5%
Chance of skill up on Success: 50%, on failure: 25%, overall 26.25%

Skill 100
Mod 5
Trivial 350
Strength 200
Ajusted Skill = 105
Success chance = 5%
Chance of skill up on Success: 50%, on failure: 25%, overall 26.25%

Here the trivial is too far away, so I does not help.

----------------------------------------------------------
Skill 250
Mod none
Trivial 300
Strength 200
Ajusted Skill = 250
Success chance = 76.5%
Chance of skill up on Success: 6.5%, on failure: 3.25%, overall 5.74%

Skill 250
Mod 5%
Trivial 300
Strength 200
Ajusted Skill = 262
Success chance = 88.5%
Chance of skill up on Success: 6.5%, on failure: 3.25%, overall 6.13%

And here, becasue the overall chance of skillup is so small, the difference is small, BUT it does make a difference.

-----------------------------------------------------

Skill 299
Mod none
Trivial 386
Strength 200
Ajusted Skill = 299
Success chance = 61%
Chance of skill up on Success: 2.58%, on failure: 1.29%, overall 2.08%


Skill 299
Mod 5%
Trivial 386
Strength 200
Ajusted Skill = 313
Success chance = 75%
Chance of skill up on Success: 2.58%, on failure: 1.29%, overall 2.26%

Tinny Difference, but there.