Salvage trouble

[duzter]

It appears that there is no group message relating to salvages. The only thing a group member will see is that the combine failed. This means that a dishonest tradeskiller could keep any salvage for their own. Is this intended?

[Silound]

Well, it may be dishonest, but since it's still leaving the customer no worse off, I see no particular great harm in this. The only thing is now the tradeskiller just got a free sap/metal/stick/whatever to sell or use.

Plus, salvage isn't something everyone has as well. I for one am not going to throw a single AA into it for now.

[Sulkano]

Its only potentialy dishonest if the tradskiller in question is using his salvage ability as a selling point to get more business. Generally, I'd imagine folks would be more upset about the combine being failed than whether a part was saved and kept.

[Akishka]

So, would it be fair for the person who is clicking combine to keep a high end item if its returned? The tradeskiller has put AAs into this ability but the person wanting the combine has either put pp or farming time into it as well. Seems to me like that is something that better be negotiated ahead of time I think I would be willing to pay more for somebody with salvage to combine for me, with the understanding that he is getting his return on the AAs in higher pay/more business and any item salvaged is to go back to me.

Either way, probably best to have that show as a group thing, just so everybody knows exactly what is going on.

[Nolrog]

I passed this along.

[Aalar]

For the record...I LOVE THIS AA. I was doing a major skill up run in tailoring (my final one) and it gave me an extra 27 combines on 220 attempts!

I have salvage 2 and will get the third point when I hit level 70.

Aalar

[Nolrog]

Just to update. This has been added to the "to do" list, but I am not sure if it is going to get "to done" and pushed out in the next update (tentatively scheduled for Oct 13th.)

[nobelmag]

its about time

Hey my feelings on this is salvage is a way for us trade skillers that do free combines to finaly get something back. Ive always done combines for free no matter what it is and as long as not a great exspense to me. Ive even replaced some items ive failed. i feel strongly there shouldnt be a message its our aa we spent time to get so we should get something out of it. Them not knowing whats been salvaged is better and safer on you.
My feelings for the new combines for augs are hey if it fails it fails.There will be a ton of fails to finaly getting the final product but its well werth it.
If its for a friend or good customer shure they get anoher chance at it.MOst of us dont charge for our mastery aa but now we can at least get something out of all our work.
Finaly shesh how many times have you done tons of combines for other to final do one for you and fail. Thats happen to me so many times.
Plus what does salavge mean other than to save somthing that was usless to others and make it usefull to you or recive profit from it. The person that salvages it most of the times gets it.

[Akishka]

"its our aa we spent time to get so we should get something out of it"

Well first, you are getting something out of it. You are getting people willing to pay you very nicely to do a combine for them. If you chose to do it free, thats your choice but, then it should be actually free and not with the intent to slide something in your pocket if you happen to get the chance. If you are feeling put upon by all those free combines there is a very simple solution, stop doing them.

"Finaly shesh how many times have you done tons of combines for other to final do one for you and fail"

Odds are, you fail as often for yourself as you do for any other person that you combine for. You may notice it more because its hurting you personally but everybody has big losses, its part of the tradeskill world. This is a chance to get some of the losses back BUT since everybody loses, why do you think only a small part of the population deserves to gain their losses, plus other's, back?


I have no problem with people charging more for having a Salvage / Mastery AA. I have no problem with people saying upfront "If I salavage something, its mine. If you don't like that, take your business elsewhere". I do have a big problem with a transaction taking place (a tradeskiller pocketing a potentially valuable item) that a customer knows nothing about. It would be like if your credit card company didn't disclose that you had to pay interest, its dishonest. And much like a credit card company, disclosure isn't really going to stop your business because your service is so highly desired.

Above and beyond my idea that its just the right thing to do, keeping your customer blind will also have pratical implications. People are not going to trust you. If you fail to salvage something and they see that, they go away saddened at their loss but happy with you. If you fail to salvage and you tell them that and they have no proof, a large majority of them are going to at least wonder if they can take you on your word for a valuable loss. That little worry leaves them walking away, saddened at their lost and not totally happy with you either. You have no way to show that you are an honest tradeskiller. As you can imagine, this doesn't encourage repeat business. I'd personally rather have repeat business paying me several k each time than the occasional salvage item on the rare chance that I get an opportunity to do a combine.

[Eileah]

"its our aa we spent time to get so we should get something out of it"

Well first, you are getting something out of it. You are getting people willing to pay you very nicely to do a combine for them. If you chose to do it free, thats your choice but, then it should be actually free and not with the intent to slide something in your pocket if you happen to get the chance. If you are feeling put upon by all those free combines there is a very simple solution, stop doing them.

If someone does a combine and it fails, then it fails, it is an acceptable risk when doing combines, how is it "slipping something in your pocket" if YOUR aa's skill gets a salvage? That item was already lost when the combine failed.

......its part of the tradeskill world. This is a chance to get some of the losses back BUT since everybody loses, why do you think only a small part of the population deserves to gain their losses, plus other's, back?

Because these people spent the AA's on the skill, they also spent the AA's on JCM3 or whatever TS mastery they may have, they also spent the money and time to skill up to GM. IMHO whoever spends the AA's should be the one to benefit from it as they see fit.

I have no problem with people charging more for having a Salvage / Mastery AA. I have no problem with people saying upfront "If I salavage something, its mine. If you don't like that, take your business elsewhere". I do have a big problem with a transaction taking place (a tradeskiller pocketing a potentially valuable item) that a customer knows nothing about.

Again, I don't believe is it "pocketing" if I make something usable out of a failed combine, I spent the AA's to be able to do it, everyone can as a matter of fact.

Above and beyond my idea that its just the right thing to do, keeping your customer blind will also have pratical implications. People are not going to trust you. If you fail to salvage something and they see that, they go away saddened at their loss but happy with you. If you fail to salvage and you tell them that and they have no proof, a large majority of them are going to at least wonder if they can take you on your word for a valuable loss. That little worry leaves them walking away, saddened at their lost and not totally happy with you either. You have no way to show that you are an honest tradeskiller. As you can imagine, this doesn't encourage repeat business. I'd personally rather have repeat business paying me several k each time than the occasional salvage item on the rare chance that I get an opportunity to do a combine.

A persons reputation is usuallly already made, and this isn't going to make or break the image you have, what would ruin someones reputation is taking the items for a combine and camping/stealing them without even attempting to make what the person wants, but if you do the requested combine and it fails everyone in the group knows it, and thats all that matters. If you walk away with "doubt" then I suggest that you find someone you can trust, because you obviously didn't trust this person to begin with.

~~~~~~~

Having said that I will add that for me it makes no difference, I have every TS covered myself and do not need to ask anyone for a combine, but I worked HARD to be able to be self-sufficeint and I pour my AA's into being able to be better at them for ME, not to make money off of anyone, I would do any combine for my friends and never think to charge them, but these are my friends and they already trust me and do not need to see any message in the window to see if I am being honest with them.

If someone is going to make a business out of doing combines for plat then it is in their best interest to not have the message given and then give the customer any item that is salvaged, THAT would make their reputation better by a longshot.

But in the end it has always been the way that the person spending the AA's be the one benefitting from the expense and I see no reason for this to change. By the same token if someone needs to pay for combines then maybe another AA would benefit them more, perhaps a "See Results" AA that THEY could spend AA's on and benefit from, if they spent the AA's on being able to see ALL the results of a combine then they deserve to benefit from it and no one would have to worry about being cheated, everyone would have to spend AA points and not just one side of the equation.

Remember, the marketplace has always had one rule: Buyer Beware. As it is now you don't even have any way to verify the skill level or what AA's the person actually has, you are taking them at their word that they have JCM3 and/or salvage AA's.

If you don't have friends you can trust to do your combines then changing this AA wont change that one iota.

[Akishka]

Ok, everybody wants to talk about all the time and effort going into those AAs. Well, my rogue can now do about 1 AA per hour in a decent group in OOW at level 63. So, 3 hours work to get this AA. How long would it take to say, get an elemental drop for a high level combine? More than 3 hours? More than 10 hours? And hey, if we are counting the preliminary work for saving up for the AA, shouldn't we count the preliminary work for getting flagged to get to the elementals?

So, our combiner has 3 hours invested in this drop (plus anything else he ever wants to combine for his own use, plus anything else he might ever salvage under your system). Our farmer has, what, 10 hours? More? invested in this single drop. Combiner will benefit from his 3 hours forever and ever and now he gets to benefit from all of farmers hours too. Farmer loses all his 10 hours in one shot and never benefits again. And thats fair??

Just as a side note - AAs are meant to only benefit those who earn them? Somehow, when I'm standing safely behind the raid tank with all his AAs designed keep him up and getting pounded on, I don't think its just him the AAs are benefitting. Or when the cleric uses her AAs to keep everybody alive and moving, its just not her that benefits. In a good community, everybody helps each other out and shares the benefits of a well rounded, well made toon.

[Eileah]

Just as a side note - AAs are meant to only benefit those who earn them? Somehow, when I'm standing safely behind the raid tank with all his AAs designed keep him up and getting pounded on, I don't think its just him the AAs are benefitting. Or when the cleric uses her AAs to keep everybody alive and moving, its just not her that benefits. In a good community, everybody helps each other out and shares the benefits of a well rounded, well made toon.

Actually, you don't gain the ability to Defense or DivArb do you? The people who earn and spend the AA's benefit from them in having more skills and a better toon, I don't gain anything from any AA expenditures except my own. I have no influence or control over how someone else uses their AA skills and I have no influence over the end results either.

Although this is a long reach, I'll play along, if a war puts AA into more HP do YOU get more HP merely by being in proximity? No, you have to spend AA's to have that and so does everyone else.

What it comes down to is that the buyer wants to see messages and for me, that falls under Caveat Emptor, you either trust or you don't, or you make your own toons to do your combines for you.

[Akishka]

Well actually, I don't think it comes down to what the buyer wants to see. I think it comes down to what I want to see as an individual. I'm not wanting to buy anybody's service, its just an issue of fairness to me. And what you don't want to see because that seems fair to you. And then its really down to what SOE decides to do, irrelevent to what we actually would like to see / not see.

Although, with the HP AA - do I gain HP? No. Do I gain an extra 2-3 seconds to get succor off? Yes. Do I maybe gain being in a group with that tiny little edge that means we can take down the big mob and I can get a chance to roll on some cool loot? Yes. With the salavage AA, the other players don't gain the chance to salavage, they gain the ability to just maybe get that item handed back to them after a fail. All indirect gains from somebody else's choice. I'm just saying this is super cool, lets all share the weath

[Eileah]

I'm just saying this is super cool, lets all share the wealth (sic)

I'll go for that!

So long as the cost is shared also =)

Otherwise, if you pay for it in AA's to have salvage instead of something else, you should be the one to reap the rewards of that expenditure.

There is nothing stopping ANYONE from having the same AA's (except JCM which I still think should be an all class thing, but that's another thread) so not only are the combiners realizing a benefit from their AA's, the person that chooses to not spend the AA's isn't benefitting from not having them.

Just like having "X"CM1-2-3 you cannot tell if a person has Salvage1-2-3, you have to take them at their word. I see no reason to change this.

[Sharrien]

I never even considered keeping something or that someone else would keep an item that was returned by salvage from a failed combine. /sigh...one more thing to have to spell out for people in the beginning of a transaction I guess. The way I look at it, the components weren't mine to begin with so they should go back to the owner if a few are returned on a failure. If you feel you should be getting something for all the clicking to skill up and the aa's spent on tradeskill masteries, then charge that fee up front. Charge a premium for having salvage, but we shouldn't be secretly claiming those items for ourselves like they were coins found under a couch cushion.

I'm absolutely in favor of a group message for salvage returns for the very same reasons that the success/fail messages were created in the first place.