an idea cause i can't sleep....

[Moraganth]

.... therefore i write.

A simple solution for opening tradeskill drops to everyone is right in front of us, actually. Instant zones.

For EP drops, 4 instant zones could be created (think, like sewers), one for each of the zones. Anyone would have access, and drop rates would be the same as in the normal EP's. None of the big names would be in zone, it wouldn't count to flagging or progression (of charm), but would basically be 4 experience zones. Exp could even be on par with EP rates.

Without the need to consider the zone a flag/progression zone, it could be designed in a more challenging way... and could even be designed with a higher setting (think ldon hard) for a 2 group setting.

The difficulty of mobs would be the same, and you could actually have names like the ldon/sewers instances.. on par with the trash drops in EP.

It would offer up a pretty good alternative to some of the more inhabited zones, and would offer an alternative to the sewers and mountains to exp in.

It would, overall, increase the availability of the rare EP drops, and place them within reach of anyone of the level and skill to kill the mobs. Acessign them from PoT would level limit them, but i don't see any level 46 wanting to enter them. They could be level limited to 62 if need be, but again, even 62's don't want to get spanked that much... unless they're really dedicated to getting spanked...

[Brickhaus]

For EP drops, 4 instant zones could be created (think, like sewers), one for each of the zones. Anyone would have access, and drop rates would be the same as in the normal EP's. None of the big names would be in zone, it wouldn't count to flagging or progression (of charm), but would basically be 4 experience zones. Exp could even be on par with EP rates.

Without the need to consider the zone a flag/progression zone, it could be designed in a more challenging way... and could even be designed with a higher setting (think ldon hard) for a 2 group setting.

The difficulty of mobs would be the same, and you could actually have names like the ldon/sewers instances.. on par with the trash drops in EP.

It would, overall, increase the availability of the rare EP drops, and place them within reach of anyone of the level and skill to kill the mobs. Acessign them from PoT would level limit them, but i don't see any level 46 wanting to enter them. They could be level limited to 62 if need be, but again, even 62's don't want to get spanked that much... unless they're really dedicated to getting spanked...

Hi there,

Sounds like to me you feel disappointed about the EP tradeskill drop rate, which is a feeling I sure most of us share in some degree. But making EP rare tradeskill drops available without flags is a very bad idea.

The developers want the drops RARE. Whille comments from some can be taken to mean that they might need to drop a little more, I have never seen a developer say "gee, we need to make sure everyone can get as much of X as they want." As a non-EP flagged tradeskiller (RZ spanked us yet again last night), I don't feel slighted by the lack of drops. If I want something, I will either pay for the final product or shop/beg/borrow for the ingredients. Flooding the market with EP drops would kill one of the few high end cash makers for folks...something I am reluctant to do for them (even if I'm not one).

Messing with PoP expansion at this point seems silly. For its flaws, it does work reasonably well. There are many more important things to do then add more zones to this expansion.

One proposal I could get behind is make new and more tradeskill drops from the non-EP zones to make lesser versions of the nice PoP tradeskilled items. But honestly, I'd just as soon prefer that they work those into a future expansion.

Brickhaus

[Ngreth Thergn]

I myself am not EP flaged... and I would only "support" this if the drops were LESS common.

I support Non EP/GoD folks getting parts... but I also support people who have been flagged having some advantage on getting parts.

Now it is also true that the EP parts may be dropping too rarely, but that is another situation entirely.

Also note these opinionas are about EQ1 only, not EQ2

[Tineras]

The drops are rare to those with flags who can farm and sell the items for huge plat not only because they are rare drops but because MOST people are blocked from entering the zone where they do drop.

It appears more that SoE is rewarding those that play the "raid guild" game with valuable cash loot instead of rewarding those that will spend time gathering tradeskill items and using their skills to make valuable and usable items for players.

Two tradeskillers that have each spent the massive amount of effort to get one or more tradeskills to GM level are not equally able to utilize and profit from their effort. One, who is in a raiding guild and worked on TS just to get some neeto item like the aid grimol earring can get raw materials for items that sell for 10s and 100s of K. The other, not being in a raiding guild, is blocked from getting those raw materials except by purchasing them from other players, either significantly lowering their profit on items or even making it so making the item is more expensive then buying the finished product from the first tradeskiller...

I agree that there are zones that require well equiped experienced players to survive (such as the Elemental Planes). However, making tradeskill drops ONLY available in such zones seems unfair to an aspect of the game which otherwise was available to both hard-core raiders and casual players alike (i.e. tradeskilling has been seen by a lot of players as an evening of the playing field allowing casual players to progress equally as hard-core players).

Raid content zones only open to the truely hard-core players are fine. Making tradeskill drops for things like elemental bows, spell focus pottery items, velium gemmed weapons (which seemingly are an attempt to make higher end weapons "commonly" available to all melee classes like elemental bows did for rangers) just seems to be another benefit accorded to the high-end raiders who already get other benefits (loot from the high-end mobs).

Let tradeskilling be something that all players of EQ can do equally. High-end gamers already get the best armor, best weapons, best gear for casting, best spells (ancient spells), etc. Why should they also get the best tradeskill opertunities?

[Itek]

It's called "double rewarding" ...

People in EP+ get EP+ drops (gear) which are better than all other gear, because it's the hardest stuff to get. That's the reward for being in the EP+ guilds.

BUT they also get the EP tradeskill-drops. This allows them to set the prices for them.

There really isn't a "solution" (certainly not instanced EP drop / exp zones with no flagging ... the schreeching would never stop) it's just a bad idea to double up on rewards.

Take, for instance, high rollers in Vegas. They get perks and comps. Lots of them. They even get rebates if they loose too much all at once. (You can shear a sheep many times, you can skin him only once theory.)

But even the "low-rollers" can earn comps. At a much lower rate and not close to the degree of someone playing $10,000 a hand ... but they still get something, and comparatively it's pretty darn nice for them.

I don't expect 25 sv all and 205hp/210mana items. I'd just like to have a chance in {demonic plane} of getting a 15 sv all, mana pres V, 90hp/90mana item if I spend, say, 3000 LDoN points.

[Delores Mulva]

It's simpler than "double rewarding". The devs in EQ have decided that the best rewards in all areas shall go to those who they see as expending the most effort in PvE. Pure tradeskillers can dispute the reasoning, but that's how things will be. PoP had "best" tradeskill drops in flag-required zones, GoD had "best" tradeskill drops in flag-required zones, advancement in multiple tradeskills requires a character to gain a certain number of AA's, having optimal success rates will soon also require a certain number of AA's. They're being consistent with every other aspect of the game. The best XP zones are flag-required, the best gear drops in flag-required areas, if you want the best that some aspect of EQ offers, you need to get into flagged areas.

[Moraganth]

Actually, no, i'm not disappointed on the elemental drop rates. I'm disappointed in Sony converting tradeskills from being an even playing feild, to one where a small select group has been given the monopoly on the best item components.

Prior to PoP, raiding meant getting the best dropped gear.

With PoP, raiding became getting the best dropped gear, the best (exclusively) tradeskill components, best spell drop rate, and best (exclusively)experience zones... at the same time, destroying game balance for all encounters prior to elemental level, destroying many lower end guilds, creating a mass of guildhopper that were nothing more than guildfarmers, created a bi-polar community of haves, and have-nots.... along with a variety of other ailments to the game, including farming lower level content that is progression content for the lower level guilds so they can farm items and lootrights.

Tradeskill components WERE NEVER put exclusivly in flagged/keyed zones available only to hardcore raiders... and that should never have been changed.

This idea actually wouldn't mess with PoP that much, other than to add a portal in PoT... far less than adding in a new set of recipes in sub-elemental zones.

It would increase the number of experience zones for everyone. Should your concern really be about double rewarding people, then make it so if people with elemental flags can't get the instant zones.

As for drop rate, elemental item are pretty rare as is... but will become more common as more people gain access to the zones. This would increase the commonality of the components, but it would be based on how many people are capable of actually fighting there. If that number is significant, then yeh, you'd probably want to decrease the droprate overall a bit.

The goal is two-fold.. bringing tradeskills back into the realm of being for everyone, and eliminating artificial monopolies on components.

If you really want to hear screeching, lets make 15 zones with nice drops, great tradeskill components, and excellent experience.. design them for levels 60-65, with the top end needing a really good solid group of knowledgable players... then limit them to only people without elemental+ flags. Elemental players have this already, try giving it to the non-raiders and see who starts complaining.

If these were open to all, then everyone that could kill the mobs would be able to gain expierence, and tradeskill items.... maybe throw in spell drops, those are still pretty screwy overall... and it would be about skill, not about how much a person raids. 4 more experience zones would not be a bad thing.

[Qaladar Bragollach]

Tradeskill components WERE NEVER put exclusivly in flagged/keyed zones available only to hardcore raiders... and that should never have been changed.

Tradeskills never produced any of the best tradeable items in the game before PoP. I'd say that shouldn't have been changed either. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

Tradeskills never produced any of the best tradeable items in the game before PoP. I'd say that shouldn't have been changed either. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

The Blue Diamond plate cultural I think was some of the "best tradable gear" for a while, and didn't they come out during Luclin-era?

[Moraganth]

Yes it did Dunthor, part of that May 8th patch... if i remember right. Shortly after that they did the patch that reduced item trivial levels making smithing more difficult. It was the best tradable plate armor for quite some time.

The basic difference is mentality here... i'm suggestions something where everyone would benefit. The basic mentallity of hardcore raiders is that having fun requires you to deprive others of the same thing they have so they can feel "special."

As for having their cake and eating it too.. yes, i agree.. hardcore raiders shouldn't be able to do that. If they want the best mob-droped gear, then they shouldn't get the best experience, best spell drops, best tradeskill components, best droppable gear (for selling for plat) in the same zones as the best mobdropped gear.

Hardcore raiders want it all, and they want no one else to have any. If sony continues this pattern, they will see the non-raiders packing up for other games... and the non-raiders constitute a much larger portion of the player base.

This thread wasn't about the raiders/non-raiders issues, although as normal anytime non-raiders make suggestions, a few raiders wade in with their /selfish on complaints it will somehow cheapen their entier existance to give anyone else that plays the game anything. This was about an idea to bring back part of the game that was for everyone, to everyone.

The 2 concerns mentioned are easily fixable, as i mentioned. 4 more experience zones at that level, and not designed for, and limited too, raiders, would be a good thing.

[Qaladar Bragollach]

I am not flagged for eplanes and I disagree with you entirely. In fact I think eplane tradeskilled items were a big mistake to exist at all. Particularly elemental bows messed up the class balance between rangers and other melee damage classes who had no comparable tradeable weapons.

As for blue diamond cultural, true I forgot about it but then its only interesting for plate classes. Also, there were tradeable upgrades available for some of it... mostly from velious... a bastion of very good tradeable gear. (Boots of the Storm, Helmet of Rallos Zek, Velium encrusted Gauntlets, etc. Vibrating Gauntlets of Infuse, etc.) Also, observe the availability of skyshrine/kael armor which can be multiquested.

While I'm second guessing myself, tae ew armor I think came in before PoP too but components were so rare that it never made much of an impact.

Anyhow, it obviously bothers some people that they can't get access to drops from locked out zones. I look upon this as a challenge to be overcome not something that the devs should be working... there are more important things they could be doing with their time.

[centx]

Personally I disagree with the idea to make instanced ep zone's or to even make the TS drop's available to non flagged. While I can understand the complaint's and even sympathize with the non-raider's. I did not spend a tremendous amount of time to get myself flagged for these zone's as did so many other's just to lose the reward's to so many other's who did not put in any amount of work whatsoever.

[Wystler]

This thread wasn't about the raiders/non-raiders issues, although as normal anytime non-raiders make suggestions, a few raiders wade in with their /selfish on complaints it will somehow cheapen their entier existance to give anyone else that plays the game anything. This was about an idea to bring back part of the game that was for everyone, to everyone.

Actually, you are making it this way. And furthermore, in typical "have-not" fashion, you believe the "haves" actually care all that much about what you are not able to access. Personally, I couldn't care less about what other folks have access to but SoE DOES care. {Complain} at them, don't {complain} at those of us that have played the game WAY IT'S DESIGNED TO BE PLAYED. Fostering your bitterness won't help you enjoy the game any more at all.

As a flagged "raider", I'm all for you getting something to shut up whining like this on otherwise pleasant boards.

[Lothay]

Raiding vs. non-raiding discussion is bordering on closeable discussion.

Bitterness, invective and bile aren't really helping things, now are they? Leaving this open for now, but shy away from the "have" and "have-not" emotional knee-jerk anger, hrm?

If the thread continues in this fashion, it will be closed an appropriate warnings issued.

[Silverfish]

Methodology of the Madness

Firstly, I'm not flagged. For anything. The closest thing I have to a flag is a key to Old Sebilis. That said, I find I must agree with the way tradeskill drops from elemental planes go now. My reason is a little different from the usual reasons presented here, and I thought it might throw a new light on why it works the way it does.

There have been tradeskill components hidden behind flags and raid targets for a long time. One that jumps to mind, because I have access and I've gotten a snootful from someone who didn't, is the Crucible of Escape. You can't get Kunzar koi without access to Sebilis. Period. This limits the making of the item to those who can get up the power to get a key and get into Sebilis far enough to fish in peace. That was rather near impossible until after PoP without a raid group. Has anyone here ever made a Large Slumberfish Pie? Sure, it's not good stats food now, but when Velious appeared, it would have been nice to make. How long after the release of any given dragon encounter did we wait so that dragons could be one-grouped for their meat?

This still doesn't approach what I feel is the most important part, though. The issue, by my way of thinking, is that the stuff made from elemental tradeskill drops is POWERFUL. Very powerful. Livestone plate is comaprable in many ways to ornate/elemental plate, and featherwood bows speak for themselves. This is high-end stuff that can be made, and it's tradeable, which makes it all the more valuable. What I see is a lot of tradeskillers that are upset that they're locked out of building (and, presumably, then using) elemental grade gear until they have access to the elemental planes, unless they're willing to throw a lot of money at it. More importantly, it's not even so much the rarity of the items as the cost. I say that it's entirely reasonable to have to pay wildly for items like these, because they're top-shelf items. Sure, it's a lot of plat, but go to the Bazaar and check out the prices on ornate patterns/molds, and then note that these patterns/molds drop in zones that are not flag-restricted. Why should elemental gear (or the parts to make it) be less expensive or more common?

Sure, it's another in a big group of rewards only available to those who get elemental flags, but it's not like tradeskills are worthless without access to elemental parts, and the parts aren't even restricted in and of themselves (they're not nodrop and the combines aren't flag restricted). If you want to use elemental tradeskill components and you don't want to spend money for them, I think it's reasonable to require you to spend time getting the flags instead. Wanting access to items of the grade of Farwater gear without paying a lot of money or time isn't reasonable, and I've managed to make more than enough platinum with regular tradeskills to finance quite a few elemental tradeskill components. The incense burner my old guildmaster carried was built by me from parts I acquired, and again I mention that I'm not flagged for the Plane of Fire, I was just a lot lucky and a little resourceful. LDoN plate may not be as prestigious, but it got me that burner.

Silverfish