Some possibilities for 1750 skilled folks in future expansion...

[Ngreth Thergn]

I guess what really gets me upset over this subject is the fact that the people who make comments about not having it available to them are the same ones who I see all day buying and selling in the Bazaar and never playing. Making all kinds of high end tradeskill items from boughten materials to sell them back for profit. You got the right to do what you want, but if you're going to manage your EQ time like this then complaining about not having ample play time or not being able to put in the effort it requires, just doesn't seem liek a good arguement to me when your making more cash per day than I have had all my EQ career . . . I hope you can see my point on this. If it's kept the way it is now, we will see no lvl 1 toons walking around with supertrophies and less people with items of stature. Most items of stature are so easy to get to now that they don't mean what they did when they were first released.

Well... Alot of those people are "afk" in the bazaar... probably asleep or at work... so... NOT really spending the time there not raiding... heck they are not doing anything... their computer is just sitting there.

There are just people who have spent 5 years in the game, but can't do what you have done in less than a year because they cannot for whatever reason make the "sacrifice" you made. Yet they continue to be left out. They at least FEEL punished because they cannot make the sacrifices for a GAME but they still want their game to be fun to them.

And I just feel your logic that offering a reward to EVERYONE is a strike against EP folks to be flawed. It seems that your OPINION is that if everyone is given a reward for time spent on tradeskills it is a strike against EP folk, and you are allowed your opinion.

If it has significant bonuses, I personally do believe it should be required that you have 250 in every skill. And if you have that, you are not level one. You are at least level 51. If the bonuses are insignificant... then let a level one tradeskiller with max tradeskills have it.

[Akishka]

I joined a raiding guild about 2 months ago, maybe a week or two less. I had no real flags except for PoJ trials and had 0 keys. Within two weeks I put in the effort to get Emp keyed, ST, VT, and all the way Elemental access, in "2" weeks time. It took some sacrificing and rearranging but I'm now there reaping the rewards. It can be done you just have to want it enough.

Couple of thoughts on this. First of all, you make it sound like with a two month commitment, you will have your keys and be able to go on your merry way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most raiding guilds expect you to stay around and continue raiding in return for your keys? So its not just a matter of, you do two weeks / months and viola! its done. Its a real long term commitment.

Second off, you seem to be assuming that all people have to do is decide to put the effort in and poof! their time appears. Lots of people have to work, some of them work 50+ hours a week. I've seen many people in game who both work and go to school full time. Some people have families, be they parents who expect their child to get off the computer and join them or children who expect their parents to occasionally spend a little time with them. If you have the luxury of being able to ignore other pressures that most of us are required to handle, than thats great for you. However, its not really something that most people are able to do - making the 'sacrifice' that is required to become EP flagged in two weeks would probably wind up in a seriously loss of quality in their real life.

Now, I agree that those who do put forth that effort should have a reward. However, those who cannot put forth their effort should also have things to work for as well. Tradeskills was that 'thing to work for' for the longest time. Here is something you can really excel in, even if you only have 15 minutes at time to play. Now, tradeskills are becoming linked to leveling and the 'thing to work for' for the casual player is rapidly disappearing. And thats the problem, there really has to be some sort of balance between the raid guild and the casual player so that everyone is allowed to remain happy. As Ngreth said, its a game. In the end, games are meant to be enjoyable. And people should be allowed to enjoy their game without working hard for it

[The Judge, Alchem]

There are just people who have spent 5 years in the game, but can't do what you have done in less than a year because they cannot for whatever reason make the "sacrifice" you made. Yet they continue to be left out. They at least FEEL punished because they cannot make the sacrifices for a GAME but they still want their game to be fun to them.

And I just feel your logic that offering a reward to EVERYONE is a strike against EP folks to be flawed. It seems that your OPINION is that if everyone is given a reward for time spent on tradeskills it is a strike against EP folk, and you are allowed your opinion.

If it has significant bonuses, I personally do believe it should be required that you have 250 in every skill. And if you have that, you are not level one. You are at least level 51. If the bonuses are insignificant... then let a level one tradeskiller with max tradeskills have it.

Alchem is 4 years old. Antomicas, my Ranger, is 5 years old. I have only been elemental for 2 months. It only took my 2 weeks of dedication to get there. It is not punishment to them, it is a reward for others. From your reply, I would supose you feel that those who can't farm their own supplies or have the money to buy them outright, are being punished because they can't have the Coldain Shawl. From your statement it sure seems this way. This is a game but it's a challenge. If you can't do it then you can't do it. All I'm asking is the whining over why the really good drops are in zones that take more than buying the expansion to get there just stop.

Maybe you don't see my point of view because you yourself may not be elemental. You might not know what the glory of being of only a few able to tread those lands is like. Maybe . . .

And I just feel your logic that offering a reward to EVERYONE is a strike against EP folks to be flawed.

I can't for the life of me come to grips with how you actually read through my post and got this from it. Item drops in lower tiered zones that make items that sell for above 20k is not a reward for everyone, it's an epidemic that needs to be halted. Ngreth, man, you have to know that on every server there is a nice majority that do nothing but buy and sell, I do not want this idea going around of these tiems being dropped in lower zones to fuel this madness. It's insane. Yantis and people who make a business out that kind of stuff would ruin it for you as well as me. You don't think it would be far camped anyways if it were to drop in Qeynos Hills?

And I have sat there for more than hour on occassion and listen to others, who by the /who command are actually AFK, having conversations all day long in /ooc - so the point of them being AFK really doesn't say much. A lot of those people are 2 boxing another accoutn while selling. Checking for new prices, updates, and anything they can make a dime doing while PLing another toon.

In the elementals, nothing drops but tradeskill items and the occassional diamonds. I see it as a reward that I a TS'er, can experience and gain good experience, while also feeding my tradeskill passion. I don't lose time on my experiencing and I get to accomplish my tradeskill goals when I am ready because I have the supplies.

GAME

The fact you capitalized this troubles me, it actually made me a little angry to tell you the truth. I'm led to believe you might be taunting me because you think since I'm EP I spend too much time in game . . .? I would hope this wasn't the case because I do have a job that's not EQ related, so my life isn't all about a game. I do other things, I have other passions, but a debate I can not pass up. I'm passionate about my opinions and I do wear my heart on my sleeve. And you keep saying us tradeskill folk like I'm just coming here to flame or rip apart poor TS'ers. My sig speaks for itself on that subject so don't think my opinion is against the community as a whole. It's against this idea.

Yet they continue to be left out.

Yes, and these will be the same people complaining about Epic 2.0 like I said. It's either going to be why is it requiring raids, why do I have to get access to this zone for it . . /sigh. I tried to be really civil here at first but this is going way out of "logical" perspectives. The ones who refuse to do as others and make forward progress will always "feel left behind" , because it's a good excuse for them. You're not being left behind, you choose to not excel or move forward. And it doesn't matter where the drops come from Ngreth, you know this. People were whining about several things pertaining to the drops for the shawl, and it was NOT ELEMENTAL drops. It just seems kinda funny to me that everyone is now getting upset because these items they are being slighted from are not ND, and they sell for lotsa cash - go figure, /wink

I don't think I can say anymore on this subject unless we beat it to death. Some of you who do not want to put forth the effort it takes to get access to the rest of the game besides PoK, Bazaar, SH, and the n00b zones, will never understand what a reward is like to be only a few there, I'm cool with that as long as you are. Some of you will never be convinced that you not seeing anymore content than a PoJ trial is a waste of time and a waste of the game. You're missing out on much more than cool looking mobs and uber loot, but you already know that because you don't have liq. earth dropping in PoN. Some of you will never be able to see an EP flagged person as anything more than a raid driven loot-you know what. You can take a look at my Magelo and see that's not true. Heck I was curious enough to check Verdandi's out the other day and he beats my FT by leaps and bounds.

[The Judge, Alchem]

Couple of thoughts on this. First of all, you make it sound like with a two month commitment, you will have your keys and be able to go on your merry way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most raiding guilds expect you to stay around and continue raiding in return for your keys? So its not just a matter of, you do two weeks / months and viola! its done. Its a real long term commitment.

--Yes a 30% raid attendance is required for New Legacy at Morell Thule. That equals to about 2 hours for 3 nights out of a seven day week for me. Ok? You can reach them at www.new-legacy.net .

Second off, you seem to be assuming that all people have to do is decide to put the effort in and poof! their time appears. Lots of people have to work, some of them work 50+ hours a week. I've seen many people in game who both work and go to school full time.

---I work 50 hours a week minimum, so what's your point. I have already graduated college and I don't speak to my family, but I guess I'm not a rela person and must be dillusional.

Some people have families, be they parents who expect their child to get off the computer and join them or children who expect their parents to occasionally spend a little time with them.

--This is a parenting issue, it doesn't concern me. How you raise your kids is your thing. If you want them off at a certain time to eat dinner then make them, it doesn't concern me.

If you have the luxury of being able to ignore other pressures that most of us are required to handle, than thats great for you. However, its not really something that most people are able to do - making the 'sacrifice' that is required to become EP flagged in two weeks would probably wind up in a seriously loss of quality in their real life.

--Ummmm . . . . . that's why it's called a sacrifice you know right?

most people are able to do

--Exactly my point, and it should stay that way. It's a reward for hard work and determination.

Now, I agree that those who do put forth that effort should have a reward. However, those who cannot put forth their effort should also have things to work for as well.

--You can go to EQLive and read the new ideas and implementations for the casual player and the non-raider . . you might want to schedule a minute though so you don't have to make any sacrifices to do some actual research.

Now, tradeskills are becoming linked to leveling

Huh?

And people should be allowed to enjoy their game without working hard for it

Ahh I see. . . .this should be easy like PacMan right? I'm convinced now that this has nothing to do with drop rates but a mass cry for help because it is actually a challenge. This went from an interesting conversation to right down the tubes, /sigh

[Akishka]

Well, from the flippant replies and lack of response to any of the substance of my post, I can see debating with you in a rational manner is fruitless. Enjoy your EP :P

[Moraganth]

No Judge, what you're saying is.. only the way you play the game is correct.. and everyone elses opinion is simply wrong.

Tradeskills (and components) prior to PoP were NEVER locked behind flags/keys exclusivly. It was a recreation for everyone to enjoy, not just some small minority of the game.

You may call it whining, and you may abhore how people will never see EP flagged people as anything but loot*****, but reread your messages.. you'll see why people have those feelings. Your arguements and logic are what pisses people off, because they want to play the game too. Sony has bent over backwards to reduce anyone not into or past elementals to the state of second-class player... you're attitude reinforces that you think that's exactly as it should be... expect people to argue with you. A few EP people give all of them a bad name.

The 90% of the players not EP'd are getting very tired of subsidizing the other 10%.

Theres the big difference in people.. some want everyone to be able to have fun, others want to restrict who has fun, usually with them in that small minority.

It just seems kinda funny to me that everyone is now getting upset because these items they are being slighted from are not ND, and they sell for lotsa cash - go figure, /wink

.. Yep, and the only people selling them to yantis are ones flagged EP... so who is it you're trying to make out to be the bad guys?

[Moraganth]

Maybe you don't see my point of view because you yourself may not be elemental. You might not know what the glory of being of only a few able to tread those lands is like.

Ngreth, please tell us how not elemental flagged you are.


popcorn, extra butter please.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I am not. I am close... but I made the decision not to be in a raiding guild when the raiding guild I was in folded up. I was a participant in the top raiding guild in my server. I was flaged for third tier zones jsut before they went poof.

Current raiding guilds on my server require more like 80% participation than Judge's lucky 30%, so there is not really one I can join at this time and feel good about my time spent, because I am also west coast. ALL the raiding guilds on my server are east coast or European... neither of which raid at a time I can make it.

And Now... I firmly believe there are other ways to control the rate of these high end tradeskills proposed then making it only EP, (Or GoD progression... future mentions of just GoD include the keyed zones not the readilly avaialble zones) available.

Yes... They should NOT be so common that the market is flooded.

so...

Just make the items horifically rare. If there is a bottleneck part that ONLY drops once a day on average (if every mob in the zone is killed the instant it pops)... you are NOT going to see these items flooding the market... ESPECIALLY because there will be failure (hey it is tradeskills!). Yes, some will complain that that is too rare... but if that is the limit that SOE wants them on the market then so be it. LET it drop in the EP/GoD zones more often as they have done something else that shows that they already have items of similar nature. But let it drop elsewhere. Also don't make it ND, so people can CHOOSE (or not choose) to sell it.

I am still not saying that EP/GoD people should not get rewards.
I just think that they are not the only people in the game that should get rewards... even Good ones.
And since we are talking 1750 people here... we can leave out "level 1 toons" because they are not eligible.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Bah. I hate for this to seem like I am making a last word... but..

I felt upon further consideration (check timestamp... this was not an instant decision) that people are getting too emotional as implied by one response, and specifically stated by another.

soo....

Closed!