Get the GM skill to mean something!

[Rissenn]

Recently I have had a run of bad luck where I have flunked several expensive combines in tradeskills I have Grand mastered.
Besides annoying me, it also got me thinking; Is it possible to allow those that have reached grand mastery to use the modifying devices (geerloks and such) to its full percentage value?

This would mean that instead of a tradeskill being capped at 252, it would be capped at 262 if one used a 5% modifier, 275 with a 10% modifier etc. I feel it would be a nice way of showing that the GM title means "that little bit extra".

[Tinile]

There are tons of posts on this already, but the reason we all stop at 252 is because the game mechanics do not allow it to go over that level.

[Ngreth Thergn]

it has to do with the way computers make numbers.

the largest number that THAT particular variable can be is 256... BUT part of the number is being used for other information... so it is down to 252... (the number is actuall made of 8 1' and 0's and some of those 8 are used for things other than the skill level)

[Yitara]

Okay, okay, I understand that the range of the numbers can't be changed, 252 is as high as it goes. But, what about looking at the problem from another view point.

Why not give GMs (252 skill) two chances to make the end product? Wouldn't it be fairly easy to say: if skill level => 252, attempt counter = 0 and result = failure, repeat attempt and increase counter by 1. I am not a math major, but doesn't that give you better odds at succeding on the combine? I mean not each individual combine, but overall wouldn't one have a much better chance at success? This might also help on the failure rate on really trivial items.

Just a thought.

[Ausversucht]

it has to do with the way computers make numbers.

the largest number that THAT particular variable can be is 256... BUT part of the number is being used for other information... so it is down to 252... (the number is actuall made of 8 1' and 0's and some of those 8 are used for things other than the skill level)

I also remember stats used to have the same cap (255) using the same 256 number scheme. Also hps used to be capped (for NPC's) at 2^15 (16 bit with a reserved bit). These have all been changed, personally I hope with the upcoming level cap increase in OoW that they address these caps for ALL skills (weapons/casting/medding/etc) in order to allow for the increase in level. Everyone has basically been using the same skill caps for 9+ levels (capped meditation at 56). They really should open this up in my opinion.

If they were able to raise hps from 2^15 to 2^31 and stat caps from 255 to 355 (or higher). Then I think they just may be able to be able to recode skills. Just a matter of time and I'm sure they will.

On a side note, I hope that when they raise skill caps that they allow you to "specialize" in one of your GM'ed skills allowing it to go over 250. Would allow them the ability to add in even more difficult items (above 335 triv) which could only reasonably be made by someone of higher skill level. (of course the side effect of raising the caps would allow gearlocks to work to max potential for those with 250 skill)

[Ngreth Thergn]

Yup. They have changed others... for some reason it is harder to change it for skills (maybe becasue there are so many skills compared to the lower amount of items the HP/mana/endur/stats were...)

I am jsut reporting what has been told. They don;t want to change skill caps for now

[Iumarex]

it has to do with the way computers make numbers.

the largest number that THAT particular variable can be is 256... BUT part of the number is being used for other information... so it is down to 252... (the number is actuall made of 8 1' and 0's and some of those 8 are used for things other than the skill level)

If I give them 2 bucks can they add another 8 bits?

[Ngreth Thergn]

If I give them 2 bucks can they add another 8 bits?

hr, 2 bucks for 100 hours of work... doubt it! (heh. who knows how many hours... but they have indicated that it is not a "switch" which is all 2 bucks is worth!!!)

[splunge]

How much work was it to increase the stat caps to 335? Or the level to 60/65/70?

[Itzena]

IIRC, the stat caps increase took a complete rewrite of the character information database from scratch.

[Ngreth Thergn]

How much work was it to increase the stat caps to 335? Or the level to 60/65/70?

First. Yes, I love tradeskills, I think tradeskills are important. I think Tradeskills should have a priority. I am half playing devils advocate half realist...

How many people did changing the stat cap and level limmit affect? The whole user base.

Changing the tradeskill skill caps only affects a small subset of the user base. (many of the people getting aid grimel and getting tons of skills... "grand master" means nothing to them, tradeskills were just part of the quest to get the item they want, so tho-ugh they have high skills... those that just did it with JUST the signet as the goal do not count in this conversation), so if it is the HUGE amount of work theyt say it is... is it financially viable?

If you say "well change ALL skill caps" so it affects all people... then we are getting into to PC/NPC ballance and a HUGE amount of extra work involved OVER the work on raising the skill caps, so again a even larger amount of work.

Now all this said, I heard some talk somewhere that they are at least considering raising the skill caps... but this was not any direct statent made to me, so I cannot confirm it in any way shape or firm, AND what I heard seemed to be something they are CONSIDERING... not something they are promising.

I guess part of what I am saying is... this is absolutely not a trivial code change in any way shape or form, it is a huge amount of work you are asking for.

I am not comitting either way on if they should do it or not, I am on the fence on the subject

[Anubsin]

the trouble isnt raising the cap the trouble is raising the cap and then recapping it at another number like they did with the other stats, but still its just a copy and past find porblem. EQ in its current state is a giant case of spagetti and few if any of the original programmers are still there to refer the current programmers as to where to even start looking. Its not 100 hours of work to change prolly only a week for one person, and certainly easier to change the cap then it would be to add extra checks in the code. I think there biggest fear is the balancing issue involved for some of the really highend post 300+ recipes that are supposed to be really rare and hard to make, if they raise the cap they would also have to adjust the drop rate of these semi-uber tradeskilled items.

[FlyerMM]

My understand on this

My understanding on this particular topic from what I have read over the almost 5 years I have been playing is that the code that is used in checking the tradeskills has not been massively reworked in a long time due to its complexity. Raising the caps would also necessitate the reworking of a rather large number of formulas that are currently in use to determine fail/success rates.

It is not a matter of just "cutting and pasting" to fix the cap. It would take a major restructuring of the database that houses the number to allow for the extra space the new numbers would take as well as a complete restructurin g of what is probably more than several hundered thousand lines of code. And without even knowing exactly where all the references and cross references that may be hidden in there are this would be extremely time consuming.

Basically, as a programmer myself I can completely understand the complexity of a task of this nature and realise that it would take a team of programmers several months to implement a change of this scale, so it is not something that can be done lightly.


Flyer Starfeather
Guild Leader Mirth and Mayhem
The Rathe Server

[KyrosKrane]

I'll just briefly re-iterate something Absor said at the last Fan Faire. All of this is possible, given enough time and programmer effort. If they wanted to, they could raise the skill caps. The question is whether (a) they want to, and (b) the result is worth the time and effort it would take.

My personal impression is that all skills (not just tradeskills) share the same caps and code sets. This is why two dodge or riposte modifiers won't stack -- just like tradeskills, only the higher mod will take effect. So rewriting the skills code to exceed the current cap would mean a pretty significant effort.

It's possible they might need to do this anyway in OoW to account for the new levels (and the associated power increases players would expect). If they do it, then it would be possible for tradeskills to exceed the cap. But then, they may find other, more creative ways of upgrading players' power that doesn't require recoding a goodly chunk of the game engine.

[Kieroth_whiteleaf]

/agree Ngreth (happy b-day btw)

The tradeskill skill caps are a pita, but I don't think upping them is necessarily the solution.

First off, it would require the addition of even more "bridge" recipes so we don't have the same complaints tailoring has.

Secondly, a massive code rewrite - which I think is partially overdue anyways, given that a caster maxxes most of their casting skills sometime in the 50s (IIRC, I don't have a caster that high and I'm estimating the calculations in my head). IF the caps were increased they ought to be increased on all skills, not just the tradeskills. You can't tell me SOE could get away with raising the cap on tradeskills and not the melee/casting skills without alienating a HUGE portion of the player base.

Thirdly, the mob rebalancing due to #2. This is a MUCH bigger issue than this small paragraph would lead one to believe.

Fourthly, and this is the biggie for me, after an overhaul that big, you're no longer playing the same game anymore. It might look the same, it might play the same, and it might have the same content, but it's like replacing a stock car engine with a prototype. Any bug issues that we have now would likely be increased substantially as a result. Look at the graphics system change and how many bugs it caused. Collision is *STILL* messed up (although I totally want to acknowledge that SOE is doing a good job of getting it fixed, it's come a long ways in a relatively short period of time). Graphics systems aren't nearly as intricate of code as mechanics systems, so that's going to be a bigger issue.

IMHO - I think the changes are worth it - but it's something that SOE needs to take their time with, given the magnitude of the change. IF they decide to change it, I'm hoping that the consider a substantially higher number as their code base - like 1024 (1022 with bit modifiers?) - and code in an artificial "cap" variable that can be altered as necessary from there.. so they can impose an artificial cap in the 300s for now, but the system could accomodate characters in the 200th level range.

SFG