Level 1 vs 2 GoD products, and refining

[draethor]

Howdy. I have read all of the forums in search of discussion on this matter, and haven't found anything. So I figured I would make a post to discuss and organize the problem with the difference in quality between level 1 and level 2 GoD crafted items.

To define what I mean by level 1 and level 2,

level 1 = natimbi, qinimi, riwwi, barindu, ferubi, sewers, vxed, tipt
level 2 = kod'taz, ikkinz, yxxta, uqua

Level 1 tradeskill drops are soloable by almost any class, from mobs that have around 10k hp and hit for 200. Level 2 tradeskill drops are soloable effectively by necros and bards, the mobs have around 25k hp and hit for 1200.

What I am asking, is that people post here with information regarding the following argument:

The difference between the final products of level 2 versus level 1 tradeskill refined items is negligible relative to the difference in risk of obtaining the items, and rarity of the items.

My first experience with this came from doing a JC combine. The first combine used pale nihilite (level 1), the second from using shimmering nihilite (level 2).

Velium Nihilite Pendant
Slot: NECK
AC: 4
CHA: +3 INT: +7 HP: +30 MANA: +30
SV DISEASE: +2 SV MAGIC: +2
WT: 0.2 Size: MEDIUM
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

Velium Shimmering Pendant
Slot: NECK
AC: 4
CHA: +3 WIS: +7 HP: +30 MANA: +30
SV DISEASE: +2 SV MAGIC: +2
WT: 0.2 Size: MEDIUM
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

The "upgrade" has wisdom instead of intelligence.


Then, there's fletching. The combines used:

bundled steel arrow shafts
several shield cut fletchings
small groove nock

and either the discord arrowhead (level 2) or serrated arrowhead (level 1). Both were trivial at 227:

Class 3 Steel Discord Tip Arrow
WT: 0.1 DMG: 8 Range: 25 Size: unknown

Class 3 Serrated Discord Tip Arrow
WT: 0.1 DMG: 7 Range: 25 Size: unknown

In around 20 hours of grouping in kod'taz I have seen a total of 1 raw material used to make discord stone drop. All for a difference of 1 damage (and check out the sweet range).


Brewing:

Taelosian Green Mountain Ginseng Tea
MAGIC ITEM
This is a Drink
STA: +5 AGI: +6 HP: +10 MANA: +10
SV DISEASE: +8 SV COLD: +8
WT: 0.1 Size: TINY

Taelosian Green Ginseng Tea
MAGIC ITEM
This is a Drink
STA: +3 AGI: +4 HP: +5 MANA: +5
SV DISEASE: +5 SV COLD: +5
WT: 0.1 Size: TINY

The level 2 product has no upgrade to the time it lasts, and +2 sta/agi, +5 hp/mana, +3 sv disease/cold. A negligible upgrade for a significant difference in both risk and rarity.

Smithing:

I am currently checking the difference between the Pale Velium Cestus and the Shimmering Velium Cestus. However, the claws kit made with the shimmering nihilite instead of the pale nihilite has the same trivial as the pale, and thus I expect there to be no difference between the two. I will let you know though, just need to find one more shimmering steel.

It is currently unknown what the baking/pottery/tailoring items do, but I suspect there will also be virtually no difference between the level 1 and level 2 components.

Also along these lines, as far as the text, lore, and logic go, when you learn how to refine a certain product, it seems that you have to "learn" how to become good at refining both level 1 and level 2 products seperately. For instance, I had 2 stacks of "raw dark matter" and 5 "raw infused dark matters." Out of the first 30 combines of the level 1 (raw dark matter) I made 51 dark matters, and in the last 10 I made 18. Out of the 5 raw infused dark matters, I made 5 (could have gotten 10 from the merchant).

Being a TSer, I understand how fickle the RNG is. However, I have had this experience with EVERY tradeskill refine I've done (between level 1 and 2 stuff). So I'm asking:

ARE they seperate? Anyone have evidence for or against this?
Are they SUPPOSED to be seperate?

Finally, the items listed above call obvious concerns to the quality of GoD crafted items. [Edit: For instance, all of the level 2 items listed require many hours of effort and most likely a potime active guild to attain. They are all worse than items a level 49 necromancer would be able to solo, or that you could craft / purchase in bazaar for no more than a couple to couple hundred platinum.] Here are two more examples:

Concussive bola - I made one of these and gave it to a monk in my guild to test. He learned that you can only fire potions (which are fun because they're unstackable). He fired 20 ensnaring 1 potions and found:

0 stuns procced
0 snares procced

So the bola is effectively useless atm. You lose stats from putting it in ranged, and you fire potions for less damage and at less range than you can throw stackable, vendor buyable shruikens.

Backpacks - so after a lot of farming, I have 1 HQ cragbeast skin, and 1 HQ hynid skin. I was excited to make some backpacks. Checked the recipe here, turns out you need 11 hynid bloods for the 2 backpacks.

After doing vxed 6 and tipt both 6 times, as well as many hours soloing in natimbi (I'm a necro), and in kod'taz (I have my 3 strand of hynid hairs), I have a grand total of 2 hynid bloods. They're currently selling on my server (Lanys) at 1k each. All this to make backpacks that will likely sell for around 500 plat (since they're inferior to rallic packs, which sell at 650).

Anyway, sorry for venting my frustration at the end there and losing sight of my topic - please, if you are able to experiment with level 1 and level 2 combines, please post examples that either support or refute the position of level 2 items having a negligible increase in reward for a significant increase in risk and rarity.

-------------------------------------------
Draethor Ispowerful
Lanys

[mgrimpo]

The one thing I have seen that I'm looking forward to making from the tier 2 ingredients are great swords. Unless I am missing something, it looks like the great swords are all made from shimmering ore and/or shimmering nihilite. While they may not be something incredible, a 34/28 2hs (Velium Gemmed Great Sword) with no recommended level is pretty nifty.

~Baysar
~Frayed Knot

[Galain]

GoD tradeskill items are truly underwhelming so far. I can understand the pre-Kod trade items, but Kod and beyond could really use an upgrade.

[draethor]

Baysar,

At first glance, that weapon might seem pretty nice, but allow me to point out where it falls short.

Remember that the items required to make this drop in a zone that would be practically impossible to reach for a guild that hasn't been, at the least, farming elementals for a very long time.

First, the lack of reccomended level is a bug, this is stated on the front page of the eqtraders site (or was, haven't checked if it has scrolled off).

Second, the weapon has a decent damage/delay. A comparable weapon I find is a war marshal's bladed staff, which sells for 8k on Lanys. It's got 3 less damage, but 50 hp, so a pretty comparable tradeoff.

But I would think most people would take the tae ew 2hs, which is currently selling at 4k (because of the 100hp).

So it turns out that the level 2 tradeskill smithed from tier 3 GoD are actually worse than dropped items from tier 2 PoP, or from a revamped original zone. When reccomended level is added with the next patch, I would expect that weapon would get you 2.5k in bazaar.

--------------------------------------------
Draethor Ispowerful
Lanys

[mgrimpo]

I agree, with a recommended level the sword would be nearly completely worthless. This is especially true since there is no doubt in my mind that the rec lvl will be outrageously high, as is the trend. For now, however, it is the epitomy of twink weapons.

[Lilosh]

Originally posted by Galain
GoD tradeskill items are truly underwhelming so far.

This is an understatement.


-Lilosh

[Kronepsis]

Cut and pasting from my Smithing post.

Post is here if you want to see the spam of data I drew on.


Smithed Weapons.
[snip]
Observations:

Base H2H weapon: 3/16, +2 Stats --> May change to 6/32 after a patch.
Base 1H weapon: 6/32
Base 2H weapon: 20/40

Expect all to get recommended level soon.

All weapons of the same type have the same stats if you throw the things in--that is, a 1HB with Velium and Pale Nihilite thrown in will have the same stats as a 1HS with Velium and Pale Nihilite. All that matters is the number of hands needed or if it is a H2H weapon.

Everything added to the weapon is assuming you are adding the maximum amount possible, except for hand to hand weapons which can only accept 1 anyway. Adding less than that to the weapon will result in a penalty to the effect.

Adding Pale Nihilite: +X DMG, +Y Resists
Adding Precious Metal bar (Silver, Electrum, etc): -X Delay, +Y Stats
Adding Shimmering Nihilite: +X DMG, +Y Resists (Is not affecting any known Hand to Hand weapons at this moment)
Using Shimmering Steel + Upgraded Weapon Mold: +X DMG, -Y Delay, +Z Stats

Pale Nihilite
H2H: X=2, Y=5
1H: X=4, Y=6
2H: X=4, Y=10
Penalty for only using 1: X=X/2, Y=Y-1

Precious Metals:

Gold
H2H: X=1, Y=3
1H: X=2, Y=4
2H: X=2, Y=8
Penalty for only using 1: X=X/2, Y=Y-1

Platinum
H2H: X=3, Y=4
1H: X=6, Y=6
2H: X=6, Y=10
Penalty for only using 1: X=X/2, Y=Y-2

Velium
H2H: X=5, Y=5
1H: X=10, Y=8
2H: X=10, Y=12
Penalty for only using 1: X=X/2, Y=Y-3

-----

Shimmering Nihilite
H2H: Not Actually Working. (Prediction if it does: X=4, Y=8)
1H: X=8, Y=10
2H: X=6, Y=12
Penalty for only using 1: X=X/2, Y=Y-2 (just found a Gem-hilted weapon in Lucy)

Shimmering Steel + Upgrade Mold
H2H: X=1, Y=1, Z=2
1H: X=2, Y=2, Z=2
2H: X=6, Y=2, Z=2

[draethor]

More fletching recipes:

http://mboards.eqtraders.com/upload/...threadid=14847

From this list, it appears that the recipes involving the level 1 GoD stuff have a trivial significantly higher than merchant bought stuff (227), yet are worse than the arrows made with merchant bought stuff.

It also seems the difference between level 2 fletched arrows and level 1 arrows is 1 damage. The components needed to make the level 2 fletched arrows are harder to obtain than any single tradeskill drop in the elemental planes (yes, more rare and harder to farm than solidified magma), and produce items that are far worse than items that can be crafted for a few platinum from a vendor (mithril champion arrows, etc).

The smithing information posted above also posits the level 2 smithing stuff as relatively worthless. Although (if I'm reading it correctly), it should be possible to craft a 16/20 1hs, the stats and lack of hp on this weapon would seriously damage its potential as a weapon of choice, although it would still be in demand.

Beef aside, we have from smithing one or two items that are almost worthwhile. Can anyone find any other items from other TSes?

-------------------------------------------
Draethor Ispowerful
Lanys

[Astroshak]

Originally posted by draethor Second, the weapon has a decent damage/delay. A comparable weapon I find is a war marshal's bladed staff, which sells for 8k on Lanys. It's got 3 less damage, but 50 hp, so a pretty comparable tradeoff.

But I would think most people would take the tae ew 2hs, which is currently selling at 4k (because of the 100hp).

Had to reply to this.

Most people I know use weapons for one reason : damage. The better the damage output of the weapon, the better it is. Warriors may choose to get a weapon with an inferior ratio or DPS output if it increases the aggro they generate, casters may choose a weapon with a far inferior ratio if the stats (int/wis, hp, mana) are right, but otherwise, as a rule of thumb, the better the DPS output of the weapon, the beter the weapon is.

That said, 50 HP for 3 more damage is a good tradeoff. The only reason to take the Tae Ew over the WMBS, or the 34 28 GoD crafted weapon, would not be for HP, but for the higher delay resulting in taking fewer ripostes. And for that, a Windblade is a better option anyway.

Draethor, a 16 20 crafted, tradeable weapon, I can only think of raiders with already superior weapons who'd spurn such. Some people, those who primarily don't melee, could choose weapons for the HP. However, those who provide their DPS contributions via melee choose their weapons based on how much damage they put out, not how many HP they have. And, 16 20 is superior to just about any tradeable one hander in the game (excepting possibly the 17 21 golden wraps of the compact).

[Kronepsis]

Originally posted by draethor
[...]
The smithing information posted above also posits the level 2 smithing stuff as relatively worthless. Although (if I'm reading it correctly), it should be possible to craft a 16/20 1hs, the stats and lack of hp on this weapon would seriously damage its potential as a weapon of choice, although it would still be in demand.

Beef aside, we have from smithing one or two items that are almost worthwhile. Can anyone find any other items from other TSes?

-------------------------------------------
Draethor Ispowerful
Lanys

Relatively useless is in the eye of the beholder Draethor. You might not like the upgraded versions, but I sure do.

[draethor]

Indeed, Somb.

But might I guess that you do not have access to the elemental planes? Does this not seem logical to you

Elementals more difficult than Velious

Elemental tradeskill items more valuable than velious items

Kod'taz more difficult than elementals

Kod'taz tradeskill items less valuable than velious items

--------------------------------------
Draethor Ispowerful
Lanys

[Kronepsis]

I suggest you specify a wee bit further. There are some Velious gear that I'd use over elemental tradeskill gear if I could actually get it, like White Dragon Helm and Sal`Varae's Robe of Darkness, so naturally I'd expect some Velious weapons may be better than Kod`taz tradeskill stuff. Most of the elemental items are not that great in my eyes, other than for selling to people who like to overemphasize a stat.

[Daikoku Ashikaga]

Relatively useless is in the eye of the beholder Draethor. You might not like the upgraded versions, but I sure do.

You are a chanter, likely not going to use a 1hs as your main primary.

No HP, no inate hate proc, these are are not going to be desired by the warrior crowd, the 2 hand versions will be situational at best for the knight crowd. primary 1hdr for a ranger, maybe, 2ndry pre epic, maybe. Doubt any epiced rouge would be using one of these, even the 1h pircer either.

Just what class/what situation do you see there being a call for these/market for the cost to make?


Dai

[Kronepsis]

I was eyeing the spears that my berserker is going to use, if my combine on the Velium Gemmed Long Spear works, since I managed to get my hands on some Shimmering Nihilite. Flagging hasn't stopped me from getting stuff in places I don't have access to, I don't see why it'd stop me now.

Edit: As for the other items, I am going to see based on availability whether I will sell them or only custom make for people that get me the components. At least for the Aligned ore weapons I've managed to sell the ones I made for > cost.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

Although their expense may ultimately make them impractical, the 34/28 two-handers should have appeal for the knights. My only issue with it personally is its lack of AC - I've become accustomed to the nice AC boost of 10-25AC weapons, thus religating the GoD weapon to the role of "DPS", which the knights are rarely needed for.

If it can beat or match a Windblade's price point (since they have similar estimated DPS), it should find a pretty decent sized market (especially considering its lower recommended level).