I have a couple questions

[Dunthor Warsmith]

Originally posted by Teaamillie
IIRC on the old old EZboards there was a quote from one of the Devs that Denmom posted. It was from a fan faire. It said that there is a miniscule increase in chance of skill up on success over failure.

That's what I always had based my personal beliefs on - I remembered the dev comment, that there *was* an increase but it was minute, so tiny for all practical (player) parsing purposes it would get lost into the uncertainty and never show itself, and too small to need to be consciously factored in to the planned skillup route. But still in existance.

But, other than that quote (which seems to be lost, heh), there's no data to back that up, where the "no difference in success/failure" crowd at least have occam's razor ('simplist solution is most likely' bit) behind them.

[Itek]

Originally posted by Duvena


sorry... but if you read the original post, you'd see that's not the answer we're after. we're looking for straight up number of successes, without taking into consideration ANY other factors.

thus, this makes your argument... quite invalid.


NEXT!

I'm going to forgive you.

People are frequently wrong. In this case it's YOU not me.

1) Is there a better chance at receiving a skill up when a combine is done successfully?

2) *edit for length and clarity, content not changed* would it be faster *edit some more*

Better chance of getting a skill up is read "which is faster for skill ups?"

So... the questions ACTUALLY boil down to...

"How in the name of Cazic can I raise my skill fastest?"

SPEED is this persons _PRIMARY_ concern. I added Cost Effectiveness simply because most humans prefer to burn SMALL piles of money when that is nearly as effective as burning HUGE piles of money. (The poster said "money is not an issue" but since earning money takes time and THEY WANT IT FAST Cost Effectiveness rolls nicely into SPEED. Doncha Think??)

Thanks for playing.

Silverfish-

Um.. like someone pointed out... 1 brownie part makes (presuming no failures) 100 final MTP combines. It takes 10 wolf and 10 mammoth meats (also presuming no failures) to make 100 HMP final combines. So even if the mammoth/wolf meat drops twice as often as brownie parts you still need to kill 10 times as many wolves/mammoths as brownies. Really. Honestly. This isn't the first time this has been discussed.

Taylith-

I punched in, just now, "skillup rate" in the default mode of search and found 334 possible threads. Scrolling down on the first page I found a thread entitled "Skillup rate on failures" which sounds promising. I didn't even check the second page of the results.

Then I punched in "high trivial" in the default mode and got 86 possible threads. "Skillup rate on failures" shows up and also "Skill-ups: Success & Failures" both, again, on the first page.

Perhaps there was a keyboard malfunction when you tried?

Yes, Taylith, the answer to both questions is "yes" in a limited sense.

I said "yes, there are some numbers to support success being SLIGHTLY more skillup rate than failure" even if not in so many words. Which implies that working "closer to trivial" (which would, of course, mean a higher percentage of successes) would also result in a slightly higher skillup rate.

I attempted to make the leap of intuition and show that while success MIGHT be better, and that -therefore- a "closer to trival" approach MIGHT also be better (due to the first) that there are other considerations which factor into the path of most skillups over time.

Time being different than "number of combines" due to a number of factors.

i.e.

400 combines, close to trivial, yields 21 skillup

400 combines, nearly impossible, yields 20 skillup

But if it takes 20 times as LONG to make the 400 near-trivial combines... which path was faster...

21/20 (skillup per time)

20/1 (skillup per time)

Gee.... perhaps Itek answered the question you hadn't yet thought to ask? Maybe? Could be?

A -REAL- example.

Jewelry. You can make, and the trivial is known for, Black Pearl jewelry.

Electrum Opal (both storebought, infinite supply) trivial 119
Electrum Black Pearl trivial 122
Electurm Fire Opal (both storebought) trivial 124

Do you think it would be faster to...

1) Go hunt Avocets in South Karana till you had a few Black Pearls (in this range my habit is to figure 3-5 combines per skill up, so I'd want at least half a stack, but at a minimum you'd want 6)

2) Skip to Fire Opal and absorb the "slower" skillups over the 119-122 range.

If you say 1) ....

Honest I'm not busting on you. If I didn't want to answer your questions I would not have. I certainly would not have volunteered more information than you asked for.

Saying

1) Yes, probably
2) Yes, probably

would have been VERY easy. And would not be nearly so helpful as actually showing you how deceptive those simple answers can be.

1) Is the first step in an analysis of an unknown compound to dehydrate the chemical?

Yes, usually.

That answers the question. But unless I tell you "unless the chemical MIGHT BE flammable" you may come to regret my not giving you a FULLER answer than what you asked for.

(Really, honest, this HAPPENED in a chem course I took. Professor asked the class what the first step was. Guy answered "dry the sample" {using an oven} and left it at that. I piped up and said "well, unless the sample might be volitile" {think BOOM} and the professor said "Good point." Some people will follow "procedure" right into the grave. If you let them.)

[uncleshmoozo]

Originally posted by Cantatus
But, keep in mind, that while these opinions may exist, there is no absolute proof until SOE confirms it.

The problem is that SOE seems to prefer not to inform the player base regarding such matters. They'd apparently prefer that we waste a lot of time trying to work it out for ourselves.

[Zyrtryx Conjureblade]

1. No idea. I've heard some people say it does, and other say it doesn't. I haven't really paid attention to how many skill-ups I've received from failures and how many I've received from successes.

2. Not really. Only stick with stuff that is close to your level if you plan on selling it in the Bazaar, giving it to guildmembers and friends, or using it yourself. If none of that matters, then do whichever you'd rather do.

Personally, I'd recommend doing Griffon Melts over HMPs and MTPs, if you can come by the Griffon Meat cheap (ask any friends or guildmembers who hunt in Jaggedpine to save it for you) and don't mind running to Jaggedpine to buy a lot of Cheese. Good idea, if you have enough room to store a lot of Cheese in the bank so you don't have to go back often.

[Tudamorf]

Originally posted by uncleshmoozo
The problem is that SOE seems to prefer not to inform the player base regarding such matters. They'd apparently prefer that we waste a lot of time trying to work it out for ourselves.

That's part of the problem. The other part is that the players shut their ears and believe what they wish to believe instead of what is demonstrably true. Specifically, people don't like to believe that events are purely random, but want to think they can somehow manipulate them. Thus, people are more likely to accept explanations like "pick a lower trivial and you gain skill faster" or "make success and you gain skill faster" over "it really doesn't matter what you do, you have no control over the randomness".

On to what SoE has said: In Niall Graycloak's notes about the Fan Faire session with Dan Enright (that's a link to the old board), it said:

*The difficulty of the recipes has NO impact on skill-up chance as long as it isn't trivial.

*Only the highest relative stat has any impact on skill-up chances and stats have NO impact on success rates

*There is a "base" skill up chance determined by the SKILL itself, currently pottery is easiest and fishing is hardest.

Note the bolded passage.

Beyond that, on the old board, there were a few threads I participated in which tried to analyze the question of whether a skill gain is more likely from a success or failure, or whether it's equal. From my memory of reading those threads, no one was able to conclusively show there was any difference. In fact, I don't recall seeing any compelling evidence whatsoever. If you browse the general forum of the old board you will see a few long threads about this issue.

[Silverfish]

In the Further Defense of Halas Pies

Thanks to everyone who responded to my points, and ran out the logic involved, which I tried to do but messed up on a few points. It's true, Itek, that the farming needed for drops is a lot higher for HMPs versus MTPs, but I do enter in my defense that I consider wolf meat to be vendor bought because there's never been a time when I failed to find ten times what I need in a run through the Thicket, or East Commonlands, and farming time for MTPs must include time spent farming up a tailor (or smith) and brewer, which are always rare pops or camped when you need them. It's trivial to us here on the board, because we're mostly multiskillers, but for someone who's interested only in baking, or KOS in Rivervale, Misty Thicket picnics represent a big pain in the butt, or a plat sink if they need to buy picnic baskets and jumjum beer.

Plus, there's the very undervalued point that when you're making a hundred Halas pie combines, you actually have more than a dozen pies when you're done, which is more than you'll get in picnics at skill 200.

Happy baking, whichever you choose!

Silverfish

[Zyrtryx Conjureblade]

Re: In the Further Defense of Halas Pies

It's trivial to us here on the board, because we're mostly multiskillers, but for someone who's interested only in baking, or KOS in Rivervale, Misty Thicket picnics represent a big pain in the butt, or a plat sink if they need to buy picnic baskets and jumjum beer.

You can buy Jumjum in the shorty section of Shadow Haven, so being KOS in Rivervale isn't a big deal, if you have SoL.

(I'm not KOS in Rivervale, but I always buy Jumjum in SH when I need it)