I have a couple questions

[Taylith]

1) Is there a better chance at receiving a skill up when a combine is done successfully?

2) Is it better to make something close to my skill level, rather than way way above my head? Forget the price and successful combines, but would it be faster to do halas pies instead of misty thicket BECAUSE it has a lower trivial? Will I get faster skill ups because the halas are closer to my skill than misty picnics are?

Thanks

[Renjah]

Re: I have a couple questions

Originally posted by Taylith
1) Is there a better chance at receiving a skill up when a combine is done successfully?

2) Is it better to make something close to my skill level, rather than way way above my head? Forget the price and successful combines, but would it be faster to do halas pies instead of misty thicket BECAUSE it has a lower trivial? Will I get faster skill ups because the halas are closer to my skill than misty picnics are?

Thanks

Most people say no but I personally feel the more successes the better shot you have. Thats my experience anyway.

It is better to make something closer to trivial I seem to get faster skill ups that way plus the lower trivial items generally require less clicking overall.

[Hibashira]

1) General consensus is no. The few tests result floating around are inconclusive.

2) General consensus is that you skill up faster the closer your skill is to trivial. So for skill up purpose, you should do recipes with lower trivial first.

[Taylith]

Thank you for the prompt response... Turns out I was probably wrong about number 1 (i thought it was true) but it seems I'm right about the second question. Thanks again

[Duvena]

two responses doesn't make you right. : oP

i'd still like to see what other people say.

(him and i were arguing about this.)

[Dunthor Warsmith]

Re: I have a couple questions

Originally posted by Taylith
1) Is there a better chance at receiving a skill up when a combine is done successfully?

2) Is it better to make something close to my skill level, rather than way way above my head?

I must've missed the memo, I thought the general consensus was that #1 is true, with people still debating how much (some thinking its a nearly-insignificant quantity, some saying its a huge factor).

... which then, I thought, spawned the revivification of the "skillup on things close to your skill!" school.

I guess I'm out of date, again.

[Tudamorf]

Re: I have a couple questions

Originally posted by Taylith
1) Is there a better chance at receiving a skill up when a combine is done successfully?

I've seen no evidence suggesting this true. My own experience, going to 250 on all trade skills (some twice), is that is makes no noticeable difference. I've done some analysis on my own data for two trade skills going from 0 to 250 (on the old ezBoard, still online if you want to search it), and I haven't seen any evidence there to suggest it.

As a practical example, I made Solstice robes (Tailoring, approximate trivial 300) from skill 187 and up. Although the failure rate began at 95% and lowered only to 55% at the end, my average skill gain rate on those was about 1 gain per 20 combines. That's exactly in line with the mostly-success combines I did just prior, and with the average rate I noticed on other skills.

Originally posted by Taylith
2) Is it better to make something close to my skill level, rather than way way above my head? Forget the price and successful combines, but would it be faster to do halas pies instead of misty thicket BECAUSE it has a lower trivial? Will I get faster skill ups because the halas are closer to my skill than misty picnics are?

Same as #1. I've seen no evidence suggesting this is true. My own experience suggests it makes no noticeable difference. I have made very high trivial combines very often and have seen the same average skill gain rate as when doing combines close to the trivial.

I'm fairly confident that, for any given trade skill, the rate of skill gain is the same no matter what non-trivial combine you make. Even if I'm wrong here and there is some difference, it's too small to detect (let alone notice), so feel free to ignore it. Make whatever items are most convenient or cost-effective.

Now a quick warning to you: you will probably see posts claiming that the opposite is true, as people tend to believe all sorts of false rumors that have been floating around for ages. Before you accept a conclusion that alters your play style, be sure to ask for the data upon which it's based. Often, it's non-existent, or based on a tiny sample that is hardly conclusive.

[Cantatus]

It basically boils down to this: There really is no conclusive evidence one way or the other on either of those questions. People can speculate that you get more skill ups on a successful combine, but it's just that - speculation. It's the same thing as how people thought you had better chances of successes in areas that weren't laggy or how if you were having a bad string of failures that zoning could fix it. It's true that doing some tests can back up some of the theories, but with as random as the RNG is, you could have someone run the exact same test and get the exact opposite results.

My opinion on the matter is that successes/failures have little to do with skill up rate. People typically do combines that are close in trivial which means you'll see more successes, and people connected the two. I think this is also where the second theory came from.

But, keep in mind, that while these opinions may exist, there is no absolute proof until SOE confirms it.

[Itek]

SIGH!!

This -really- can be answered better with a "search" than a new thread... but here goes...

1) The -best- numbers in favor of "success vs. failure" (try that for a search text) "skillup rate" (or that) seem to show AT MOST a 5% increase.

ie.

400 failures yields 20 skill ups

400 successes yields 21 skill ups

(these numbers approximate)

Big whoop. But people will KILL themselves and each other beating this thread into the ground. By the way, the sample sizes for most of these test PREVENT rigorous math from making a proof one way or the other.

2) *changed opening to keep me from being banned* O my -gosh- (valley speak). Baking forum. Search by author Itek. I've written the answer to this question a few dozen times....



Again....

The PRIMARY concern here is not NUMBER of combines, but COST EFFECTIVENESS and SPEED.

Halas Meat Pies (HMP) take 5 times as much plat, 4 times as many total combines for a "final combine" and 10 to 20 times as much farming for "drop only" parts, as compared to Misty Thicket Picnics (MTP).

So, I asked a LONG, LONG time ago "is there any evidence that the skill up rate for HMP is so -much- greater over the range 200 to 226 as compared to MTP to justify spending 5 times as much plat?"

No one. ...

Let me say that AGAIN...

NO ONE has _EVER_ posted numbers even -close- to showing that the skillup rate is so much better over the 200 to 226 range for HMP as to justify the difference in time / plat spent just doing MTP.

Skillup rate is not the only factor to take into consideration. Some "closer to skill" formulas are actually MUCH harder or more expensive. Cockroach clusters. Much -easier- to do than MTP. But require 4 foraged items PER COMBINE!! Truffles... very nifty. But still take a foraged component for each attempt. Can't forage? Oops. Make a forage bot.

These questions almost border on RELIGION as far as the tradeskill community goes.

JOKE coming. You have been warned.

1) Which is a better god ____ or ____?

2) Are my chances of getting into heaven / paradise better if I:

a) sell all that I have and go around homeless washing the feet of strangers

or

b) strap a sandwich board sign to myself and go and holler at heathens till they convert?

[Silverfish]

Timesinking and the Halas Pie

Itek wrote:

" Halas Meat Pies (HMP) take 5 times as much plat, 4 times as many total combines for a "final combine" and 10 to 20 times as much farming for "drop only" parts, as compared to Misty Thicket Picnics (MTP)."

Firstly, I want to thank you for your post. It was the most concise, straighforward and sensible discussion about this that I've ever seen. That said, I do have one question about the statement quoted above. I agree with your assessment about the money and the combines, but why does it take you so much more time to farm drops? The only parts you can't buy from a vendor are wolf meat, eggs and mammoth meat, and that includes the pie tin. Wolf meat and snake eggs fall like rain in any newbie zone that has them. I haven't killed wolves or egg-droppers since they were blue to me, because I can shop up enough of any of them in newbie zones (one pass through the Misty Thicket merchants yields about 30 snake eggs, and East Commonlands even more). Mammoth meat drops from every third mammoth, and each piece makes (on average) nine final combines. Comparing to the MTP, which requires (again, on average) two or three brownies killed for a brownie parts for 10 stacks, and all the foraging needed, that doesn't seem to be so much more, despite the fact that there are more items to get, since they're everywhere. The other obvious advantage is that you only need skill in baking to make Halas pies, assuming you beg, borrow or buy your pie tin and filleting knife, whereas you need to have some skill in brewing, baking, tailoring and smithing (and you need access to a good number of foraged-only goods) to put a picnic together. I realize that many of us here are multi-skillers, but I do know a number of bakers who like the Halas meat pies specifically because it's just baking skill, so they don't need to learn another skill. And as an added benefit, you can make everything up to the final combine in a portable spit or mixing bowl, so you only need an oven when you're ready for the final combine. I regularly take parts for subcombines on groups and prep up "X in cream" and dough during med breaks. When I get back, a quick visit to the alchemy supply is all I need, and then I'm ready, with no fighting for a brew barrel or forge.

I know it may seem odd that a Halfling cleric would choose Halas pies over familiar food, but I did want to point out that there are certain advantages to doing them, and didn't want an aspiring baker without other tradeskills to come to frustration when there's such a good recipe for high-end baker-only types.

Silverfish

[Tinile]

I belief that there is no difference in what you choose for skill ups. That said, I wanted to touch on the above argument against MTP.

For 100 combines of MTPs, you need 1 brownie part, 10 vegetables, 2 fruit, 1 egg. The rest is vendor goods. You can get these items in bazaar for about 10 plat in 2 minutes. I just wanted to add this, as I think your view of MTP was skewed.

[Taylith]

I'd just like to say that I did search both the site and these forums for the answer to these 2 specific questions, and I COULDN'T FIND THEM.

I really hate it when people get upset about not searching, I'm sorry I don't live here - I only have about 5 posts here, see? I don't live on these forums! I did a search for about 10 minutes, and I think thats plenty of wasted time before I make a new thread.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

Anyway, I believe now that the answer to both questions is that yes they are true, however I also believe it cannot be proved.
I've done the shawl and I have 221 baking atm, and from what I've seen it seems like they are both true.
Thanks for all the answers guys =D

[Duvena]

it seems taylith you are NOT right... and that there is no formula to prove you are, results seem to be inconclusive and differ from tradeskiller to tradeskiller.

The PRIMARY concern here is not NUMBER of combines, but COST EFFECTIVENESS and SPEED.

sorry... but if you read the original post, you'd see that's not the answer we're after. we're looking for straight up number of successes, without taking into consideration ANY other factors.

thus, this makes your argument... quite invalid.


NEXT!

[Teaamillie]

IIRC on the old old EZboards there was a quote from one of the Devs that Denmom posted. It was from a fan faire. It said that there is a miniscule increase in chance of skill up on success over failure.

I believe it was something like less than half percent.

I searched the old board can't find it.

[ColdHeart]

I think the biggest problem with testing this is how?

You would ideally have 100 attempts from going from 200 - 201 using MTP and another 100 for HMP. Or maybe to make it easier, 190 - 191 and include Patty Melts.

So you need to lvl 300 toons from 0 - 190 skill...

And even then, I doubt the test will be conclusive. We are talking about a RNG here.

And why do I say so high a skill lvl? Because skill ups at low skill come too often.