Question on some mechanics

[Malodium]

Just a few things I need cleared up
1. You can only raise your each skill to 250 right? I swear I have seen people talk about having a 252 skill. Where does that come from?
2. Do certain recipies raise your skill faster? For example. MHB is super easy to get stuff for, and if you want to simply stand there clicking for about 10 hours straight, can get you to 250 (252? hehe) with hardly any cost. Are certain recipies designed to raise your skill faster if they are harder to gather the componants for? In other words, reward the people who put more work into making more interesting items. Im not talking about things that are further up the skill ladder, im talking about items that take the same skill, but require hard to get stuff.
3. Hell levels. In my experience, there arent any. Everything begins to get much harder once you pass 150 or so, and at about 190, you average one skill point every 25-30 combines. So far I have 3 skills past 230, and its not gotten one ounce easier since 222 (the number I read is the end of the hell level) Ive done smithing, brewing, and JC all past 230 and havnt noticed any let up in difficulty in getting skill ups. Just my luck??

[Verdandi]

Re: Question on some mechanics

1. You can only raise your each skill to 250 right? I swear I have seen people talk about having a 252 skill. Where does that come from?

Your actual skill that will display when you look at your list of skills will never be more than 250. Some skills, depending on your race and class, have lower limits. But all of the general tradeskills (baking, brewing, fletching, jewelcraft, pottery, smithing, and tailoring) are capped at 250, yes. When people talk about having more than that, they are referring to "modified" skill. There are items in the game that you can equip which will give you a higher effective skill. You won't see it reflected in the number if you look at your list of skills, but it gives you the increased chance of succeeding on a combine as if you actually had that higher skill. The highest that any modified skill can ever be, because of the way the game is coded, is 252 (or sometimes said to be 255, it's debatable). So if people say they are 252 they just mean they have 250 skill plus a modifier.

2. Do certain recipies raise your skill faster?

Depends on who you ask. As far as I know, there has been no conclusive, statistical proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that any particular recipes will raise your skill faster than others. There is a theory that you have more of a chance of skilling up if you succeed at an attempt, which would mean that easier recipes will make you skill up faster. There is some debate over the statistics involved there, though. Personally, my priorities are recipes with the easiest ingredients to acquire, then for the cheapest to make, and then for what's closest in skill. I tended to use easier recipes just because I wanted variety, so I went through as many as possible.

3. Hell levels. In my experience, there arent any. ... Ive done smithing, brewing, and JC all past 230 and havnt noticed any let up in difficulty in getting skill ups. Just my luck??

It's all just luck. It does get more difficult to skill up at the higher levels of skill, and does seem to get a little easier then somewhere before 250. But there are no hard and fast numbers for exactly where it gets "really hard" and exactly where it gets "easier". It's just a general trend.

There are a LOT of rumors, I mean a LOOOOOT of rumors that circulate, particularly after every patch, about whether or not this recipe fails more all the sudden, or this skill is suddenly much harder, or that this skill is bugged and will no longer improve. That is because there are a LOT of people playing Everquest and doing tradeskills, so even highly unlikely things are going to happen sometimes. And when they do, those people are likely to come here to discuss it. That's fine, sometimes weird things do get uncovered this way. But you have to remember that for various mathematical and psychological reasons, we will see patterns where they don't exist. Ten people all posting that they stopped skilling up after yesterday's patch don't even begin to prove anything. 999/1000 times the rumor is groundless. They're still worth investigating, because that 1/1000 happens sometimes. My advice is to try to stay skeptical (but not completely close minded) and not to leap to conclusions about anything.

[Malodium]

Good responses, thanks
I knew some of it was probably rumors, lots of rumors crop up just due to the RNG i suppose.

[Furyrpied]

About the one recepie making skill ups go faster than another...

I'm doing tailoring right now (gawd.. why? For the love of Karana, why did i pick up a sewing kit???) and have been working my way up slowly...

I tried some cultural armor (Vale Embued Studded Masks) and got a skill up on almost every second combine...

Once again, no real confirmation here.. just a trend I noticed with my mask making....

Anyone else notice this when doing cultural? Or did the RNG just love me that day?

[Arista]

Originally posted by Furyrpied
I tried some cultural armor (Vale Embued Studded Masks) and got a skill up on almost every second combine...

Once again, no real confirmation here.. just a trend I noticed with my mask making....

Anyone else notice this when doing cultural? Or did the RNG just love me that day?

According to the database, Imbued Vale Studded Mask trivials at 122, which means your skill is even lower than that if you're using them to skill up. At that low skill level range, it is fairly common to experience a very high skill-up rate such as the one you're describing. From my own experience, the hell levels don't usually begin until around 180 or so, and continue until at least around 220.

[Itek]

Re: Question on some mechanics

1) Most people say "252 effective" skill. Which is generally 240 plus geerlok. (240 plus .05 * 240 = 252) That's the generally accepted "maximum effective skill" level. Once you hit "252 effective" you never see an increase in the long term average success rates.

2) There are no proven "faster skill up" formulas. Check out the debate that RAGES, absolutely RAGES, in the Baking forums about Halas Meat Pies vs. Misty Thicket Picnics vs. Other-Stuff for skilling. Generally most people see fewer successes and fewer skill ups doing MTP, however since MTP costs 1/5 the plat, 1/4 the number of "combines" and 1/10 the amount of item farming... like I said there's a lot of debate about it.

3) "hell levels" denotes a radical change in "expected number of combines" per skill up. Just as, before they smoothed it out, the "exp hell levels" you got HALF as much exp for a mob as someone a level below or a level above. In the skill range 180 to 220 there is a NOTICABLE jump in the number of combines to get a skill point.

i.e. (these numbers are made up, and represent an approximation)

0 - 50 get nearly a point every attempt
51 - 100 get nearly one point for two combines
101 - 130 get nearly one point for 3 - 4 combines
131 - 160 get nearly one point for 5 combines
161 - 180 get nearly one point for 7 - 8 combines
181 - 220 get nearly one point for 20 - 30 combines (varies by skill)
221 - 240 get nearly one point for 15 - 25 combines
240 - 250 get nearly one point for 20 combines

See from this (somewhat loose) table that one would expect from a SMOOTH progression of difficulty that 10 - 15 would be usual number of attempts per skill point over the range of 180 - 220 while in reality it's double that.

x
x+2
x+4
2(x+6)
x+8

Notice the "hell level" a little more clearly there?

If x is 10

10
12
14
32
18

Math. Not as hard as it looks. *grin*

Also, a KEY element to remember is that 200 used to be the HARD LIMIT and making 200 in a skill was supposed to be "the Ultimate Goal"(tm) for a tradeskiller. We should not be surprised that things get MUCH harder right around 200. What is surprising is that they get easier.

[Malodium]

We should not be surprised that things get MUCH harder right around 200. What is surprising is that they get easier.

Well thats what I have heard countless times as well, but since that is simply NOT the case for me, I decided to ask. I suppose if everyone else is experiencing this, then its just the RNG in my situation, and not the norm.
In fact, in the case of smithing, it has gotten much harder past 220. I do sets of 100 SS combines. One set around 200 skill netted me about 15 combines per skill up, another was around 18. Since ive hit 220, I havnt gotten any better than 25 attempts per skill up.
So, RNG issues with me I guess, and the reason I asked

[Nolrog]

i.e. (these numbers are made up, and represent an approximation)

0 - 50 get nearly a point every attempt
51 - 100 get nearly one point for two combines
101 - 130 get nearly one point for 3 - 4 combines
131 - 160 get nearly one point for 5 combines
161 - 180 get nearly one point for 7 - 8 combines
181 - 220 get nearly one point for 20 - 30 combines (varies by skill)
221 - 240 get nearly one point for 15 - 25 combines
240 - 250 get nearly one point for 20 combines

Interesting point. I'm fletching at 171 right now, and I've wondered what the average number of skill ups per stack would be (and the number of successes), so I could estimate the amount of money it would cost me to get to 202.

What WIS/INT level did you use to come up with this chart?

[Itek]

Um... "these numbers are made up, and represent an approximation" ...

Key elements:

1) MADE UP
2) APPROXIMATION

That being said those numbers roughly represent my skill up rates in Fletching, Smithing, Tailoring, Brewing, JC and Pottery (I did Baking so long ago and tradeskills have changed much since the winter of '99) as well as my wife's rates for Tailoring, Brewing and Baking. Then add in the reported success rates for smithing, baking and tailoring for 158 - 250 skill levels. (Since my wife and I have only done Brewing beyond 200, I love tradeskills but just don't have the plat or hours to gather components.) My INT is 255 or better (KEI anyone?) and my wife's WIS is 255 on Brewer/Tailor but only around 210 on the Baker.

But, yes, those are the numbers I use for "expectation." Meaning I go and gather 10 x components for each skill up in the 160-ish range I am shooting for. And 20 for each skill up in the 240 range when doing brewing for example. And for Baking we've been gathering 100 attempts at a time, simply because it's easier to make 100 than less than 100 attempts at Misty Thicket Picnics.

i.e. I am working on smithing. I just trivial'd Fine Plate Visor. (163) Now between me and 175 (the target skill to have 95 percent success with geerlok on Coldain 8th shawl combines) are

Gorget (166)
Bracer (168)
Gauntlets (takes me to 175)

Gorget and Bracer take 1 folded sheet and Gauntlets take 2 folded sheets.

163 to 166 at 7 combines each is 21 attempts
166 to 168 at 8 combines each is 16 attempts
168 to 175 at 10 combines each is 70 attempts.

(70 * 2) + 21 + 16 = 177 folded sheets.

177 folded sheets is roughly 200 folded sheet attempts.

with 90 percent success rates (with geerlok) I expect to get

18 of 21 gorgets
14 of 16 bracers
63 of 70 gauntlets
180 of 200 folded sheets

losing
3 gorgets @ 22pp = 66pp
2 bracers @ 28pp = 56pp
7 gauntlets @ 45pp = 315pp
20 folded sheets @ 20pp = 400pp

total loss 837pp ... so I need 1000pp to throw AWAY, roughly, and 2000pp cash to start.

not to mention the 100-odd leather padding required, but that's a seperate story...


Wait... 100 leather padding... which will take how long to farm... argh...
*plots the death of Dain Frostweaver IV*

[Nolrog]

Key elements:

1) MADE UP
2) APPROXIMATION

Well, which is it?

They seem to be reasonable enough for me to make an approximation on how much it would take me to go from 171 to 202 in fletching. At my WIS (183 I think no KEI) when doing TS, I was getting around 1 skill up per 20 attempts. That does seem to be a bit lower than your made up (or approximate) table.

I was succeeding on about 3/4 combines (roughly). I don't remember the exact numbers, but I remember I estimated that it would cost me 400-600PP to get to 202, under those assumptions, and also assuming that I would sell all my successes back to the vendor.

Based on this, I've concluded a couple of things. If I'm going to seriously do TS (I only tinker around with them now, no pun intended) I'm going to have to invetst in some significant WIS gear, so that I can get my WIS near 250. I should also invest in geerloks for each skill. Finally, I should create a new toon, heck, a whole new account, just to hold tradeskill stuff, until I'm ready to do the combines.