high baking without forage

[Mmroew]

I wanted to say if someone doesnt have foriging, to get high levels in baking you can make Holy Cake <trivial 242>

Winter Chocolate-Brownee parts+frosting<2>in mixing bowl

Celestial essance<3>-scent of mar+celestial solvent in mort and ped
can buy all in POK

eucalyptus leaf

clump of dough

Frosting

Cake round

Hope this helps the other non-foragers like it did me!

[Xxyl]

This probably belongs in the baking forum, no?

[Mmroew]

yes.. but...

yes, but I wanted it to edit the cooking "classes" list, and to message web page masters <with the errors they are having> it said to post here

[Itek]

Hmm...

I have said in other threads that if you can't forage or don't have a good friend who forages (preferably Planar forages) high skill baking comes down to MTP and little else.

Holy Cake... now here's a thought... let's examine.

100 MTP attempts cost roughly 100 plat given best prices. (and 1 brownie part, 2 fruit and 10 veggies from your friendly local forager / tracker)

Holy cake

3 celestial solvent (2g, covers other minor ingredient costs)
3 scent of marr (1p 5g)
3 frosting (very cheap)
1 brownie parts (farmed)
clump of dough (basicly free, looted basilisk eggs are your friend)
eucalyptus leaf (4p 2g)

42 + 45 + 6 = 9.3 plat an attempt

100 MTP cost 100 plat
100 HMP cost 500-550 plat
100 HC cost 930 plat

Um... do you suspect there is a reason people don't make a lot of Holy Cakes? (Most people are opposed to lighting huge piles of money on fire when they can substitue a smaller pile.)

[Xxyl]

Why does it always seem to me that you come off toward people with ideas contrary to yours a bit bitter. Just the way it sounds. /shrug

As for Holy Cakes. They have a VERY high success rate liken to Grobbs. They may cost more, just like Grobbs cost a LOT more than Mino Brews, but your are going to be able to succeed a LOT more than with MTPs. They don't sell fast but they DO sell and have the same stats as boar chops. Different strokes for different folks but jeesh they aren't stupid for wanting to find a route that is more appealing to them for whatever reason.

[Kaycie]

For those of a bit higher lvl jord meat - boar meat- vann toes are all 250 trivs and req no forageing i used them alot for pure skill ups. (vann toe stew resells at a decent price as well, +45 mana is nice)

Another huntable option is the anaconda and griffon meat from jagged pine i had my bind next to the vendors there for 2-3 months and would check all 5 vendors while waitng on a rez from time to time i could snag a stack of the griffon meat ocasional anaconda and plantshoots. (lol the banker is in the same room)

[Itek]

Xxyl-

There's really no reasonable response I can make to that. (I composed 3 different replies, and by the time I was almost done with each came off sounding even more bitter.)

You are entitled to your opinion of my opinion.

I however stand by my earlier statements. I meant them. I meant them, perhaps, with more humor than you are reading in them. (I have a dry sharp and sarcastic wit, which frequently sounds harsher than I usually intend.)

[Latumofis]

A little diversity is nice... I often make holy cakes just because MTP's require so much 'stuff' and HMP are expensive.

[Scuba]

Appreciated Itek's Info

Well, Itek, I for one appreciated the cost comparisons.

I always try to skip over the emotional "stuff" in a post and extract only the information, lol.

While there may be legitimate reasons for someone to HolyCake it to 242, the vast majority of peeps should be clearly advised of the cost in doing so. Your message to them that MTPs are the cost effective route was loud and clear. I view your post as a service to the unaware.

Those that truely want to go the HolyCake route (for whatever reason), probably don't need the cost comparison and are already aware of the costs of what they are doing. It seems clear that the post from Itek was not intended for them.

Keep up with the info Itek. It was informative and helpful.

[FelishannaSecretlight]

OOC.

I would like to address this skill route issue head-on, and look at the comparisons from a more rounded set of perspectives rather than simply based on 'cost' in PP terms. I started these calculations with a preconception which proved false when I added it all up, but it is still perhaps not as clear cut which route is 'best' as Itek might suggest, as it all comes down to your criteria for measurement.

There are several issues that should be taken into account. In addition to 'Cost' of course, there is 'Time Spent', 'Annoyance Factor' (click-click-click and running around needed) and Storage Space needed (allowing for us to avoid having to do marathon combine sessions, but letting us do things between groups, raids, etc). Let me elucidate.

Most of us extremely mad tradeskillers want as few precombines as possible. We also want any precombines we do have to do, do be an absolute minimum number of components in them (less 'clicks'). These things can affect the choice of the item(s) we choose to skill up on, possibly more than just the PP cost, depending on money in the bank; of course, and it is all a balance.

I will look at Holy Cakes and MTPs as an example.

First look at Holy Cakes.
=================

The basic combines are:

1 Brownie Parts + 2 Frosting = 1 Winter Chocolate.
1 Celestial Solvent + 1 Scent of Marr = 1 Celestial Essence
1 Basilisk Egg + 1 Flour + 1 Milk = 15 Clumps of Dough
1 Winter Chocolate + 1 Frosting + 1 Eucalyptus Leaf + 1 Dough + 3 Essence (+ Cake Round) = 6 Holy Cake.

So how much work is preparing for and executing 100 Holy cake final combines? After the annoyance of farming 100 brownie parts (or buying them if you can), then ignoring fails on precombines:

Make 100 Winter Chocolate combines (3 components per combine).
Make 300 Celestial Essence combines (2 components per combine).
Make 7 Clump of Dough combines (3 components per combine).
Make 100 Final Combines (8 components per combine - 1 returned).

Price: I'll quote Itek's value of 930pp, plus the cost of the brownie parts if you bought them. Admittedly fairly expensive (but cheap compared to, say, Tailoring skill-up on Solstice Robes ... OUCH!)

Time: A total of 507 combines (weighted average of 3.4 components per combine). Quite a lot.

Annoyance: Well, we have need of a pestle & mortar, and a mixing bowl, and we need a cake round. But once we have the Brownie Parts, there is not really any running around to do. So, I'd rate this as 'average' annoyance level.

Space taken: For Chocolate and Dough, make these as you gather, so 6 slots. For essence, make only before the final combines, 100 at a time, so 5 more slots. Then slots for the final product. This is also an 'average' level of space required.


Now look at Misty Thicket Picnics.
=======================

The basic combines are far more numerous:

1 Fennel + 1 Jumjum stalk + 1 Lettuce + 1 Vegetables = 10 Jumjum Salad
1 Barley + 1 Bottle + 1 Hops + 1 Jumjum stalk + 1 Spices + 1 Water flask = 10 Jumjum spiced beer
1 Fruit + 3 Frosting = 6 Apricot Marmalade
1 Apricot Marmalade + 1 Loaf of Bread = 12 Marmalade sandwich
2 Milk + 1 Rennet (+1 spoon) = 10 Mature Cheese
1 Frosting + 1 Eucalyptus Leaf = 10 Royal Mints
1 Brownie Parts + 2 Frosting = 1 Winter Chocolate.
1 Basilisk Egg + 1 Flour + 1 Milk = 15 Clumps of Dough
1 Frosting + 1 Jumjum Stalk + 1 Winter Chocolate + 1 Clump of Dough (+ 1 Cake Round) = 20 Jumjum Cakes.
1 Jumjum Cake = 10 Slices of Jumjum Cake
2 Mandrake Root = 1 Woven Mandrake
1 Small brick of ore + 1 Water flask (+1 file) = 1 Steel Boning
1 Steel Boning + 1 Woven Mandrake = 10 Picnic Baskets
1 Jumjum salad + 1 Jumjum spiced beer + 1 Marmalade sandwich + 1 Mature cheese + 1 Royal mints + 2 Slice of jumjum cake + 1 Picnic basket = 4 Misty Thicket Picnics

So how much work is preparing for and executing 100 MTP final combines? Ignoring fails on precombines:

Make 10 Steel Boning combines (3 components per combine).
Make 10 Woven Mandrake combines (2 components per combine).
Make 10 Picnic Baskets combines (2 components per combine).
Make 1 Jumjum Cake combine (5 components per combine).
Make 20 Slices of Jumjum Cake combines (1 component per combine).
Make 10 Royal Mints combines (2 components per combine).
Make 10 Mature cheese combines (4 components per combine).
Make 2 Apricot Marmalade combines (4 components per combine).
Make 9 Marmalade sandwich combines (2 components per combine).
Make 10 Jumjum spiced beer combines (6 components per combine).
Make 10 Jumjum Salad combines (4 components per combine).
Make 100 Final Combines (8 components per combine).

Price: Itek's value of 100pp. Very cheap, one can only agree.

Time: A total of 202 combines (weighted average of 5.35 components per combine). Less than I had thought, so even with the greater number of components per combine, this is less work than Holy Cakes.

Annoyance: Well, this route requires rather more skills, many differing kinds of containers, and quite a lot of running around. Moreover, the sheer number of raw materials needed makes it a right PITA to manage. In annoyance terms, probably pretty high.

Space taken: This is the killer here. You need a LOT of free space to break up sessions of making MTPs. Rated as 'high' level of space required.

Conclusion:

MTPs win hands down on cost.
MTPs win on time/annoyance to do the combines themselves (this surprised me, but its true).
HCs win on generally being less annoyance. 3 precombine types is a LOT easier to manage than 9.
HCs win hands down on space requirements, if you want to break up sessions of baking between groups/raids etc.

Overall, I can see why some people recommend one, and others recommend the other. One thing this analysis has shown me however, is that I think it likely MTPs would look favorable next to Halas Pies, if analyzed in this way.


By the way, I am 207 at Baking, and I am just skilling using Jord Meat, Boar Meat and Vann Toes. These all have VERY LOW annoyance, time and space requirements, as they all have no precombines. Ok, the ingredients are slow to get, but I do hunt in BoT and PoTactics a lot.

Regards,

Felishanna Secretlight
Archon High Priestess of Tunare
Heroes of the Old Lands
Lanys T'Vyl.

[Tinile]

Hunt in areas where PoP meats drop, if you are high enough level. Boar chops are the simplest recipe... ever! Boar meat, spice, garnish. No utensil. No subcombines. They sell well also. There are other very easy PoP combines like vann toe stew. I scouted bazaar for these meats and bought when cheap, as well as attempted to hunt these spots. Other PoP recipes are a little longer, but they are still much easier then MTPs/HCs/etc and they sell for a nice profit.

[Scuba]

MTP vs HC - the annoyance factor

Excellent post Fellishana.

As for the space requirements for MTPs. Most of us who "crank" them out use mules or 2nd accts for storage. We do one precombine at a time, thus minimizing the space required on our main. When you have done enough of them, managing your space on your main and your mules is easy - deluxe toolbox rotation is your friend

As for the annoyance factor - It would seem to me that Holy Cakes are much more annoying than MTPs. Why? Brownie Parts! MTPs only need one per 100! Yes, I said one bp per 100 MTPs! You will need 17 Brownie Parts for 100 Holy Cakes - ouch! These are rarely for sale (at least on my server) and expensive when they are. Only real option for massive quantities like this is to hunt em down in LFay. Not too tough, but very annoying.

The rest of MTP's shopping list is easily bought (even the foraged items - they are the cheap ones). I always rate the annoyance factor of a recipie by how hard the components are to get, not by the number of combines. As you point out, I can do the combines while waiting for raids to start or while LFG, so is a mindless, easy chore. But, component gathering is a PIA. The more storebought the better and the less hunting/foraging the better.

When you combine this reasoning with Itek's cost comparison, it becomes very clear (at least to me) that MTPs are the real way to go and Holy Cakes a distant 2nd (HMPs a far back 3rd).

As for PoP meat combines, these are great, but VERY SLOW. When you start looking at the number of combines you will need to skillup from 220 to 250 (1 skillup per 50-100 combines) you will quickly see that PoP meats are just not gonna cut it. But, I never met a PoP meat I didn't like and use em when I can get em

This is simply my preference, and I do realize others have their own preferences. I merely offer this to maybe provide some insight to those about to enter the 220 to 250 "long haul" of baking.

BTW - anyone wanna buy some MTPs? lol

[Sanna]

if you know a mid-40s druid who is thinking about their epic, and you are higher, consider offering to help them kill the corrupted/tainted brownie combo in LFay for the nodrop piece for them, if they help you farm some brownie parts for you.



OR:



go to Steamfont and take a tracker. Look for the mountain brownies. MUCH lower level, I can kill them with two roots now and never have to touch them. And as I recall, they have a decent drop rate on parts, too.



-- sanna
was lucky enough to find both brownie parts on vendors, as well as about 70 slots worth of Picnic Baskets and another 70 slots worth of JumJum Spiced Beer. Vendor mining is your friend.

[Scuba]

Mountain Brownie bugged?

Originally posted by Sanna
go to Steamfont and take a tracker. Look for the mountain brownies.

The Mountain Brownies were bugged (at least on our server). The Tracker could get to them fine, but they weren't there!! Tried See Invis, no luck. Track would say they were straight ahead, then you move up a bit and it says they are behind you, but nothing is there.

Petitioned this, but got no response.

Anyone else experience this?

I did find that the Brownie hunting in LFay was easy (65 wizzy ) and didn't require a tracker. Just went to little brownie hut and killed two guards (they usually had some parts), then did an AE nuke to take out the 3 brownies around the camp fire (each of them always have brownie parts). That usually gave me 4 or 5 parts per spawn set.

[Tinile]

if you know a mid-40s druid who is thinking about their epic, and you are higher, consider offering to help them kill the corrupted/tainted brownie combo in LFay for the nodrop piece for them, if they help you farm some brownie parts for you.

Those are the scouts you kill for epic and they never drop parts.

The Mountain Brownies were bugged (at least on our server). The Tracker could get to them fine, but they weren't there!! Tried See Invis, no luck. Track would say they were straight ahead, then you move up a bit and it says they are behind you, but nothing is there.

There's a fun new bug brought in the last patch or two... newbie mobs in many newbie zones are getting stuck under the world. Happening in PoS a lot too, but in newbie areas like misty, butcher, steamfont. All these newbie areas have hills. Hopefully it will be fixed in the next patch.