The case for MTPs

[Xenephex]

This is old news for most of you, but I thought it might be helpful to some of the other new bakers out there (like myself). The purpose of this post is to compare making Halas 10 lb. Meat Pies to making Misty Thicket Picnics for skill-ups.

I had seen posts referring to the 'hassle' of making Halas 10 lb. Meat Pies vs. making Misty Thicket Picnics, and while I didn't doubt their word, I had to go find out for myself. I suspect others may make the same mistakes I did.

Part of the problem with this is that the Pie recipe LOOKS a lot simpler than the Picnic recipe. You've got 4 fairly similar components (___fillet in cream), a couple clumps of dough and a store bought herb, vs 7 totally different components for the Picnic.

I should have done the math before I spent a lot of time hunting mammoths, but here's the actual comparison:

1. Cost. I have seen a couple different posts estimating the cost for storebought components for 100 MTP attempts at about 120 pp. I haven't done the math precisely, but that sounds about right and I have no doubt that it is correct.

For Pies, you require a storebought herb at 2 pp plus each for EVERY final attempt. That is almost 210 pp for 100 attempts right there. You also have to buy at least 17 fennel, another 2 pp plus herb. Ignoring the cheaper ingredients, you are over 250 pp per 100 attempts already.

Bottom line, Pies are more than twice as costly as Picnics per attempt. It is true that you get 6 pies vs. 4 picnics per success, and presumably you will succeed more on the pies, but both selling price and demand for the Pies appear to be considerably less than for the Picnics if you're hoping to recoup some of your costs through sell-back.

2. Farmed/Foraged components. Assuming no failures:

10 mammoth meat will get you 100 attempts at Pies.

10 brownie parts will get you ONE THOUSAND attempts at Picnics.

A stack of basilisk eggs will get you 150 attempts at Pies.

ONE basilisk egg will get you 1500 attempts at picnics.

You do need additional stuff for Picnics, but...

1 stack of fruit will get you 1440 attempts.

1 stack of veggies will get you 200 attempts. Vegetables thus become probably the 'hardest' thing to get enough of and they really shouldn't be that tough.

3. Combines. Every pre-final combine for the picnics yields AT LEAST 10 items per combine. Not true for Pies. Each of the four ____fillet in cream combines is a yield one per combine. PLUS, the pre-combine for the bear and lion fillets is also a yield one combine.

In other words, you have to do more than 600 pre-combines per 100 final attempts just to produce the ___fillets in cream. And this is totally ignoring the combines necessary for the creamy fennel sauce.

For picnics on the other hand, to do 200 final attempts (ignoring one time combines and assuming no failures):

30 combines will get you 200 picnic baskets.

21 combines will get you more than 200 Marmalade sandwiches.

20 combines will get you 200 Jum-Jum spiced beer.

20 combines will get you 200 Jum-Jum salad

20 combines will get you 200 Royal Mints.

20 combines will get you 200 Mature Cheese.

44 combines will get you 400 slices of jum-jum cake.

So, bottom line - 175 pre-combines for 200 final attempts vs. well over 1300 combines for 200 final attempts.

4. Storage. This is the real kicker.

Because a lot of the pre-combines for the Pies actually end up REDUCING the amount of storage required for the final combines, there is not much way to 'wait' and do anything at the last minute to reduce your storage requirements.

Let's imagine that you are gearing up for 200 attempts at Pies. There is no very convenient way to avoid having 10 stacks each of the fillets in cream and the sage leaf and 20 stacks of clumps of dough. That's 7 10 slots full of components. Yes, you could do the clumps of dough as you go along, but it's not terribly convenient.

Even more than that, if you are going to do stuff in some sort of orderly fashion (i.e., you are going to make all your creamy fennel sauce at once), then there is not much way to avoid, at some point in time, having in your bank storage 40 stacks of creamy fennel sauce plus 40 stacks of the various fillets.

In preparing to do 200 attempts of Picnics, however, you can do the following - in one 10 slot BP (plus two slots), put a stack of woven mandrake and a stack of steel boning - that's your 200 Picnic baskets. Put a stack of apricot marmalade and a stack of bread - that's your 200 (plus) Marmalade sandwiches. A stack of rennet and two stacks of milk is your 200 mature cheese. A stack of Eucalyptus and a stack of frosting is your 200 royal mints. Two stacks of jum-jum cake is your 400 slices of cake. You will also need a dairy spoon.

So, if you premake your 10 stacks each of beer and salad, you can put all your components in 3 backpacks plus 2 slots, carry a sewing kit and mixing bowl and stand at the oven and still have 3 empty backpacks for successes and never have to move. All the 'as you go along combines' are 2 (or in one case 3) item combines and all yield 10 components on success.

So that's the case. If I've made any math mistakes (and I'm sure I have) please correct me. As I said, I hope this is worthwhile for other bakers who, like me, may think that the Pies 'appear' to be easier and cheaper than the Picnics.

[Nimphe Wildwood]

All I can say is wow. A very good and detailed read. I have no doubt in my mind that MTP > HMP. Glad that is the path I'm currently taking.

[Taraddar]

I did both on my way to 250 baking. I had a fair number of mammoth and wolf meats already saved up for the halas pies and wanted to use them up.

Halas meat pies- Lots of mindless combines. This is both good and bad. It definitely does require alot of precombines for one final combine but they are all simple and straight forward repeated combines so very easy to just sit and do a bunch or even do a bunch of them on a mule/second account while doing other things which I did a fair bit off. Also there is no real advantage or disadvange to doing large or small batches. You can sit down and do a combine of 20 and it's no problem. You can sit down and do a combine of 200 and it's just 10 times more clicking.

Misty thicket picnics- Less subcombines and huge yeild on any of the dropped components for the final combine. This makes it pretty easy to gather up a large amount of combines. The major disadvantage of picnics is they aren't easy to do in smaller batches. You spend soo much of your time running around getting this and that from different vendors and requires no less than 5 different containers to do combines in (tailoring, smithing, brewing, mixing bowl and oven. Obvisouly once HMP's are trivial picnics are the obvious choice to do but before then it really depends. If you want to do large batches of 100+ combines at a time and have the space to handle that then Picnics are probably the better way to go. If you want to do smaller batches like 20 or 40 then I'd say go with Halas meat pies.

As far as storage space goes I'd say HMP's win hands down.

and 20 stacks of clumps of dough. That's 7 10 slots full of components. Yes, you could do the clumps of dough as you go along, but it's not terribly convenient.

Assuming your using basilisk eggs they yeild 15 per combine so if you just have the components to do the combines it only takes 27 eggs, milks and flours which is only 6 slots instead of 20. Fail to see how this is any less convinent than

n preparing to do 200 attempts of Picnics, however, you can do the following - in one 10 slot BP (plus two slots), put a stack of woven mandrake and a stack of steel boning - that's your 200 Picnic baskets. Put a stack of apricot marmalade and a stack of bread - that's your 200 (plus) Marmalade sandwiches. A stack of rennet and two stacks of milk is your 200 mature cheese. A stack of Eucalyptus and a stack of frosting is your 200 royal mints. Two stacks of jum-jum cake is your 400 slices of cake. You will also need a dairy spoon.

So, if you premake your 10 stacks each of beer and salad, you can put all your components in 3 backpacks plus 2 slots, carry a sewing kit and mixing bowl and stand at the oven and still have 3 empty backpacks for successes and never have to move. All the 'as you go along combines' are 2 (or in one case 3) item combines and all yield 10 components on success.

what you propose for picnics where you are adding another combine container to the mix and requiring doing precombines for 6 of the 8 items while standing at the oven.

Misty picnics are great for doing a bunch of precombines and then just clicking away at the final combine. Mixing in a bunch of different subcombines in multiple different containers rather defeats the purpose of doing Misty picnics over halas pies in my opinion.

If you've got a bunch of space either on you/in the bank or on a mule MTP's are great for doing a bunch of combines. If your aren't looking at doing at least 100 combines at a time (i personally did 200 at a time) then I would do HMP's till they triv. Otherwise it's just too much time wasted running around to all the different vendors and doing the different subcombines.

[Tinile]

MTPs all the way. I absolutely loathed doing HMPs and I found the mammoth meat and wolf meat on vendors. Not only did I find meat, it was already fileted, which took out a step. I think I had 5 or 6 stacks of the mammoth filets and I swore never to do HMPs again after that. It was awkward, cumbersome and tedious. MTPs are an absolute delight compared to HMPs. Doing MTPs in shadowhaven is about as easy as pie. I always did 100 combines at a time. Make my boning and mandrakes. Make the beer. Buy remaining ingredients in SH and bazaar. Open oven and mixing bowl and most of my bags, rearrange and GO!

Of course, my preferred route, when supplies were available, was to do PoP baking combines. Simple, easy, subcombineless combines. And most sell super well.

[Xenephex]

Well, you've got me on the clumps of dough - good point. You've still got close to 6 bp's full of stuff in storage though, before you can begin combining. And, I should note, that if you do this with the Pies, you also have to carry a mixing bowl with you (for just that one item). You actually only gain 4 slots of storage.

My thinking on the '12 slot' thing was that you could do the pre-combines or purchases on this stuff at any time and just stuff it in your bank because it takes up so little space. If (for example), sometime early on, you make a stack of winter chocolate and a stack of clumps of dough, you've got darn close to a lifetime supply (2000 combines).

There are a couple of other errors in what I stated: For one thing, it takes 60 combines to make 200 picnic baskets, not 30 (I think I started out thinking per 100 attempts and swtiched in mid-stream).

Secondly, while storing the stack of woven mandrake and steel boning in the bank makes sense, taking those and a sewing kit with you to the oven for your final combines does not. It makes much more sense (and takes less storage) to combine the picnic baskets before you go to the oven and leave the sewing kit in the bank. Not sure what I was thinking.

I guess what I like about leaving the sub-combines is that I can make a stack of jum-jum cakes, stick them in the bank and forget about them. Same thing with a stack of woven mandrake or steel bonings. i.e., I can get almost completely prepared for a run of 200 without worrying about bank storage. Then, when I'm ready for a run, a couple minutes at the brew barrel (20 combines) a couple more purchases and I'm ready to go with nothing left to do except simple stuff that even I can remember.

It just seems easier to me.

[Itek]

Do a search for "economics" in baking thread. (or for threads started by Itek in baking)

Basic conclusions:

1) HMP will run roughly 2.2 k plat from 191 to 226 (presuming a miraculous skill up rate of one per 10 attempts)

2) MTP will run roughly 2.4 k plat from 191 to 250 (presuming a more reasonable average of 40 attempts per skill point)

(using best prices 100 attempts cost 100 plat for MTP but 550 for HMP, not buying supplies in the bazaar)

3) HMP sell for break even, if they sell.

4) It's cheaper to make your own MTP, regardless of poor success rate, then buy them in the bazaar.

5) You can feed your character for roughly 200 login days with the successes from your skill up run.

6) 318 < MTP Trivial < 365 (So, given SOE's fascination with 255 and 355 I personally consider MTP to be 355 trivial.)

People repeatedly suggest JaggedPineForest and PoP baking to get away from HMP MTP skill runs.

For non-foragers or non-planar-foragers this is simply impossible to even consider.

So, the final question is...

Is there a compelling reason to do HMP instead of MTP from skill 191 to 226?

No.

HMP cost 5.5 times as much for 4 times as many subcombines. This results in a rough estimate of 22 TIMES as hard. No one has ever suggested hard numbers or even theory that would support HMP having a skill up rate to justify the work and expense.

MTP. If you can't forage in Plane of Justice there's just nothing else to even consider.

(Except perhaps the minor bridge of Pixie Powdered Cinnesticks. Takes you to 202 and only requires the mass slaughter of Pixies in LFay and hour after hour of foraging in GFay. If you are working on foraging Morning Dew, and Sylvan Berries, for yourself and your friends this is a great way to skip 11 skill points. 220 cinnamon sticks and 660 pixie dust shouldn't take THAT long to gather right? Plus think of all that Morning Dew.)

[Xenephex]

HMP cost 5.5 times as much for 4 times as many subcombines. This results in a rough estimate of 22 TIMES as hard.

I actually figured 6 to 7 times as many combines. We need an OC person to give us precise numbers.

This also doesn't figure in the relative difficulty of gathering components (at least twice as hard for HMPs? I feel like it's worse than that).

I (fortunately) only had 11 Mammoth meat, giving me enough for 110 attempts maximum. I've done 60 of them and need more plat to buy fennel and sage leaf before I can finish. My inventory is a mess (it's also a real pain that 4 of the components LOOK exactly the same) and I am tempted to just toss the remaining fillets that I have (but I won't). I really dislike making these things.

[Xxyl]

Originally posted by Itek
For non-foragers or non-planar-foragers this is simply impossible to even consider.

Not too impossible to be honest. I found almost a stack worth of Vann Toes on a few vendors in PoK library while farming vendors yesterday. With max buy/selling cha they only cost 2pp and change iirc. Jord meat is even cheaper from vendors, like 1pp and change. You would be surprised what you can find on vendors when non-skillers get ahold of this stuff. I've even found Hero Parts, Blood Raven Parts, and the various Slarghilug pieces on vendors a few times (and snatched them up fast!). Of course the Slarg pieces have been the most expensive to buy from vendors thus far but since I don't make Poppers to eat or sell (saving them ALL up for if I ever have the good fortune to get crab meat) it wasn't too big a deal for me to shell out for em.

[Beriberi]

You all are missing a few very important points when you discuss the economics of making these two items. Halas pies are more expensive per combine, that is true. Some believe that the fewer number of items needed for pies balances this out (I hate running all over norrath for ingredients for picnics myself; I always seem to forget something). But, one important aspect of making these things is success rate. Even at lower skill level (I started pies at 202 after truffles) I rarely failed with Halas pies. My first run of 80 combines (in which I got no skillups ) resulted in bags of pies. In order to see if picnics would give me better skillups (or any skillups) I gathered the ingredients for 200 picnic combines. I got maybe two skillups (I've forgotten) but most importantly, I only succeeded ONE TIME on the picnics at this skill level. So, those 4 picnics ended up costing me a fortune.

I put the Halas pies on my bazaar mule and prices at 3pp each. I figured that each pie cost me 1pp. I was surprised to discover that I sold out the entire bunch within three days. I only had to sell 1/3 of my stock to break even, but now I had the money to buy components for another 160 combines using my profits from the first batch.

I've gone on and made many more pies, and have sold every one that I have made, all for 3pp each. My skill level is now 226 so I will not get skillups from them anymore, so I'll go onto picnics now. The fact is that I have paid for my halas pie combines and then some by selling the pies.

The truth is that you should not count on a decent success rate on picnics until your skill level is somewhere around 220. Now, if you don't plan to sell the products and want the cheapest route with fewest combines, then picnics might be the way to go. Just count on loosing money until later on, and hope you can eventually sell enough to recover earlier losses. On my server (Prexus) there is someone who occasionally has hundreds of picnics (meaning 1000+) for sale at 4pp each, and there is no way that anyone can compete at this rate and hope to even break even unless you already have 250 skill. For me it doesn't matter, as I have made a few thousand platinum profit from earlier pie sells, and picnic successes are high enough that I can sell competitively and still at least break even.

My point to this whole ramble? Don't count on high success rate with Misty picnics initially. Making the pies sucks, but despite what people tell you (and of course this varries by server) there is a market for pies if you price right. They won't sell for 7pp+, but then they are not worth that much. 3pp is a legimite price and will fund further pie combines until skill allows decent picnic success.

Just more food for thought.


Bwahahhaa. Couldn't resist the last pun on the baking forum.

Beriberi

[Balkin]

I guess it boils down to

DO YOU NEED THE MONEY FROM SELL BACKS?

If you're funding your continuing skill ups with what you make via baking, then by all means, skill up on HMP's and reap the benefits of a very popular food item.

If money really doesnt' matter, and you just want to get your skill up and be DONE with it, then go with the MTP's.

My bakers are at 198 and 191 respectively, with another one at 143 already. I just want to get the first two to 200 (since they've both GM'd something already, so I'll do MTP's with them Cash doesn't really matter, I just want it over with. The third one will be my GM baker, so HE will do HMP's till my fingers bleed.

It's all a matter of personal choice, and fundage eh?

[Beriberi]

Indeed, Balkin, it all depends on personal choice. I'm merely pointing out one aspect of the baking skillup progression, that being the success of Halas pies versus picnics. Often it is claimed that "making picnics gives you something to sell" and I am saying that this is not entirely true. If you want to take the fast route and don't care what it costs, then picnics are the absolute best things for you to make. If you want to try a slightly slower, less money intense method, then don't completely rule out Halas pies. If you are planes of power capable and have access to such forrages or baking drops, then by all means use those for skillups; same goes for Jagged pine drops.

If nothing else, just for the heck of it, then make some pies and put them on your trade mule just to see what happens. If you're on Prexus server, then shoot me a tell and I'll spot you a mammoth meat or two; I've been collecting the things since forever in anticitation of baking skillups, and even after getting 226 skill level I have them comming out my dark navy blue hind end......





B

[Itek]

*groan*

No, I didn't forget the difference in success rates. (go read the thread)

191 to 226 on HMP (given formula success rates and 1 in 10 attempts skill ups) takes roughly 2.2 THOUSAND PLAT farming for your own meat. Anyone who's EVER done a tradeskill over 190 will _LAUGH_ at the thought of getting one skill every 10 attempts over that range. It's simply NOT POSSIBLE. This is WAY less than the cost.

IF you can sell the HMP for break even you might break even. But you just made -4 times- (or more) the combines on (debateably) harder to farm items for the same number of skill points.

Math. Not just for eggheads.

It's -cheaper- and -easier- by factors of 5 and 4 respectively to do MTP compared to HMP.

If you -just- eat your own MTP it's cheaper. And prices for the two don't even compare. (MTP easily sell for twice what HMP do, and far quicker)

"You can find 2pp a piece PoP stuff on vendors."

Yeah, and I can find 210 pp diamonds on vendors too. Doesn't mean suddenly cultural smithing becomes easier than Fine Steel.

I'm a DE. I have bought PoP baking supplies. It's just not viable. I can buy a stack of bread crumbs. Whee, one stack of attempts. At very high trivial items. (which means low yield, and the debateable "success means more skill up" idea)

Think for a few moments.... which is easier.

1 brownie parts
2 fruit
10 vegetables

or

100 of any PoP baking supplies

Hands down. If you can't forage them yourself PoP baking is not viable compared to EITHER HMP or MTP.

191 --> 202 Pixie Powdered Cinnesticks
202 --> 250 MTP (and any exotic recipies you happen to fall into)

.sig under construction (again)
Holder of the 7th shawl. GM trophied Brewer. 1100 club.

[Xxyl]

You said it was impossible, and I merely pointed out that no, it isn't impossible.

You know, not everyone wants to powerskill their baking or any other traderskill in sittings of 200 combines or more. I know I sure didn't. I'm not going to lie and say I didn't do my time with truffles, and HMPs, and MTPs, BUT I didn't do them exclusively, I didn't powerskill every chance I got, and I didn't GM baking or brewing for that matter in less than a month (and if powerskilling I would hazard to say it is doable in less than a week).

I didn't MIND the extra time it took to get my trades GM'd. I didn't MIND finding or acquiring enough PoP drops for only a few combines here and there. They were always a refreshing change and it was always a LOT neater when I got a success on a PoP drop recipe than on an HMP/MTP.

But I'll grant you, if you want to powerskill exclusively, then yes I agree that PoP drops/forages/fish are impossible to concider for skilling up and are not a viable skill up route.

So it is really how you want to skill up and not so much what you want to skill up on.

[Itek]

Hmm... I did use the word impossible. Bad form.

It's not impossible. As I pointed out I myself have aquired some PoP foraged stuff.

I said it's impossible to consider by which I meant...

"While it's technically possible to do so, the vast increase in both expense and tedium, not to mention vast delays scrounging for parts, make the expense and tedium of either HMP or MTP seem the only reasonable course for people wanting a cheap fast method of advancing their skill to 250 who cannot obtain the planar forages themselves."

(The underlying point of the thread being, so far as I understand it, "what's the best, fastest, cheapest, easiest way to max baking?")

I should have made my meaning more plain, and I should have not said "impossible" as every time you use an absolute there will be an exception. (yes, I did it again, on purpose, it's a joke)

[nayana]

i did 100 halas meat pies and failed more than a few times (at 191)
i ended up with about 6 stacks ish... and it took me a week to sell them at 3pp each... little to no profit...

then i got into MTP... my first 100 combones got me 1 stack... selling that at 7pp each made me break even... and i found it was realy easy to get 100 combines worth og MTP cmpared to HMP... less sub combines too


now that i can get 200+ picnics from each batch of 100 combines i am making a tidy profit ... and MTP sell a LOT easier at 7pp each compared to pies at 3pp each