Baking Risk vs. Reward: A Letter to SOE

[Faymar]

I am a baker with skill 250 on Tarew Marr. I am level 63 and in a mid-level guild and have worked hard to educate my guild regarding the benefits of baking and baked goods vs. iron rations. I am lucky in that I have a lot of support for my "true" vocation (my class is secondary to my tradeskill). My issue is a simple one of risk versus reward, although I fear the explanation of it may seem overlong if you aren't used to halflings.

I have baked my way through Norrath and the moon and my guildmates have collected ingredients for me on their travels. The excitement in /guildchat when I passed a Plane of Justice trial was not that I could fight in a new zone but that I would be able to fish in Plane of Storms and make Breaded Storm Salmon for all. When we kill a dragon the Dragon Meat is announced with as much excitement as the actual loot.

And this is the problem. I accept the dragon meat with pride, we have slain a giant foe and ripped the flesh from his bones. I am in the top tier of chefs within this world and yet this wonderful and exotic meat makes ... a steak. A steak which is a hearty meal, not a feast or a banquet. A steak which enriches the owner with four points to all primary statistics: STR 4, DEX 4, STA 4, AGI 4, WIS 4, INT 4, CHA 4.

Look at the risk we went to, killing this dragon. Look at the time and effort I put in getting my baking as high as it could be.

Now offer this steak to the tank who has Halas Meat Pies (miraculous meal, DEX 5, STA 5, AGI 5, HP 30) which use the meat of common animals that can be killed by someone who has just started.

Offer it to the caster who has Misty Thicket Picnics (miraculous meal, STR 5, STA 5,WIS 5, INT 5, HP 20, mana 30) which use brownie meat (level 6?) and foraged goods.

Perhaps you can offer it to the Paladin looking for both DEX and WIS, although now it just takes level 46 forager to walk into Plane of Justice to make Justice Fruit Pies (miraculous meal, DEX 15, STA 5, WIS 5, HP 15, Mana 15). At least better than the previous examples in that you must have left your hometown and achieved a certain level, but certainly not comparable to killing dragons.

Perhaps I will find a hybrid who would prefer this steak. I'm still looking.

The "risk vs reward" formula just doesn't seem to be in place. Dragon steak, which should be the mother of all meals, becomes force-feeding fodder.

I can understand a desire to allow people to master a tradeskill regardless of level but should that include the best items that can be made? Should those brave adventurers who have reached the point of slaying dragons and with great skill (and a bit of luck) roasting the meat not receive a reward?

This has come to a head as a result of my guild taking me to Sleepers Tomb to go fishing.

Yesterday, ten of us ventured into the tomb, with lengthy discussions about where we could find water and what evil beings we would need to kill to allow me the safety needed to fish. From the day the guild began looking at going to ST, going fishing in its depths has been a part of the discussion. It's exactly the sort of community thing I believe EQ was built around: imagine 50 people cheering me on as I say I have my sleepers tomb key, my fishing rod and five stacks of bait.

Imagine the congratulatory tells I received when I said in /gui that we were at the water's edge and there was only one monster between me and my goal.

Imagine the dismay when we found we were ill-prepared for the guardians of that place and died horribly on the spot and I had not yet realised my goal of going fishing in the tomb.

Imagine the planning involved for returning to that cursed place and trying once more, against the odds, for the elusive Weary Wrass.

Imagine the euphoria when the fish is obtained.

Now what I'd like, is to imagine the smiles on the faces of my guild mates when I award each and every one a Slumberfish Pie as a celebration! You have been to Sleepers Tomb, a zone only a small percentage of players ever see! And you, the caster, the bard, the warrior, the ranger, you have received loot from this great adventure!

Slumberfish pie. Miraculous meal (the fish are bigger than the dragon steaks?) with STR 4, STA 4, CHA 4. Those needing charisma would rather have a lucky cabbage (ingredients are all foraged). Those looking for strength and stamina again will opt for the simplistic picnic. The spectacular pie (which, I concede, does not have the rarity of dragon meat but the availability of it is sufficiently low to warrant uberness) again falls short.

Those who supported me in my dream are rewarded by my pleasure but wonder why I would put the lives of many adventurers at risk for such a trivial result.

Everquest has always prided itself on being a game about people, about cooperation, about community. It has attempted to accomodate diverse play styles and give a variety of goals to fit the needs of players around the world. It creates a world for us in which we can be heros and you have always encouraged us to take the risk, go against the odds, and be the best we can be. Make room for the smaller heros who do not just slash dead their foes but take the time to explore the lesser-trod avenues of the game.

Please, for the love of the obsessive halfling bakers (and the guilds that support them), make it so that when a community bands together to help the tradekiller, it ends up being worth the effort.

[panamon]

Dragon meat can be obtained solo. I agree slumberfish pie should be improved, but it is obtained via fishing. VI also tends to balance tradeskills vs. PITA, not RvR. MTP's are more of a pain than dragon steaks. Weren't brownie parts a rare find when they were introduced?

[Yalenya]

You are giving examples of recipes that went into the game several expansions ago. At the time they were first discovered they were top of the line. But now, less so. I think recipes should continue to get better as expansions are released. Why bother come up with a new recipe if things that already exist are better?

Yalenya

[Sanna]

I feel your pain, hon. I wish I had a solution.

Congrats on getting your guild to recognize your skill. My roomie's guild seems to only have one baking tradeskiller, and she has a peachy lovely time trying to get them to save eggs and meat and whatnots.

It does seem odd that something that needs so much work returns so little a reward. seems scarily like life, don't it? -_-


/hug

[Angelsyn]

You want good food?

Make Hero Sandwiches. Now that's good food!

[kiztent]

And the mage epic pet, the pinnacle of timesinks, as a result of being from Kunark is dated next to the 61+ pets.

Time marches ever onward.

[Woodeckt]

I have to agree with you Faymar

I have to slightly agree with some of the other posters that these are old world recipies

I applaud your writting skills and the time and effort you have taken with this post and hope that you get some response.

Know that you have my furry footed vote and support.

Also this has to be one of the best posts asking for a change to existing things I have read in over 2 years of EQ.

[Starfury]

I agree with this as well. Dragons have always held this aura of mystery and power. It would make sense for their meat to make something amazing. Remember when the White Dragonscale Cloak and Red Dragonscale BP were the greatest things to have? And it was on par with the task back then.

What I've always thought would have been neat would be each type of dragon meat would give different stats based on color, like D&D dragons. An example, white dragons weren't always considered the most intelligent, but they were sly and resistant to cold. Perhaps their meat would make a +20 Dex, +20 Cold Resist food (possibly add in other stats just at a lesser degree?). Just food for thought, no pun intended.

~Starfury

[Faymar]

responses

Panamon:

The PITA vs. RVR defense has merit but then frost giant steak seems very nice stats for very little PITA. Moving on to higher Tier meats (which I was trying to avoid bringing in) we categorically see easier recipes with decent stats coming in, clearly a reward for the difficulty of the zone.

Certainly Slumberfish Pie is falls under the PITA category though... you need a pot per combine using a weird mud from Antonica. I think that is sensible, it means someone can't inundate the market with them by sitting there fishing for an hour. It certainly ranks it up there with picnics/pies to me, though.

There is one melee dragon that can be taken solo, as far as I know, so although I guess you could farm it for meat, I don't think that makes dragons "soloable". I wouldn't be unhappy if that one never dropped meat.

Brownie parts were never that rare, the issue was there was nothing else to skill up on; every item over 135 needed chocolate! Going to Lesser Fay and picking up a brownie part or two was no big deal, but getting stacks of the **** thing was! One of the few baking ingredients I ever saw sold over /auction in EC

Misty Thicket Picnic needs one brownie part for 100 combines (assuming you don't fail slicing the **** cake, is that just me?) so definitely not a rarity.

Yalena:

Agreed, these are old Velious recipes that have been lost in the shuffle which I think is a shame. There are a lot of reasons to come up with new recipes if better things exist ... look at all the new PoP recipes! You aren't going to be able to get much better than Misty Thicket Picnics and Halas Pies as an overall recipe, but Justice Pies are much better for rangers, necros love the jord pies, raiders munch up those swamp rat crunchies, etc. I love going out and finding new recipes and handing out new things, and it's doubly fun if they are uber.

Bear in mind too, I'm not saying nothing should be better: hero sandwiches is a great example. It's a higher tier plane (i.e. cf Sleepers Tomb), not that common a drop, it's 3 per sandwich (well, ish, you know what I mean), it's a PITA to make and it has bloody good stats. No problem there at all.

Some recipes age well, from the same era we have pickled wurm (low skill level and nice twink food) and frost giant steaks (the monks food of choice). Some don't, and I think they should be looked at.

Possible solutions:

I think Starfury's idea of making dragon meat situational (although I suspect by colour is pretty unworkable *grin*) is a good one. Is there a high cold/fire resist food equivalent to swamp rat crunchies? Add resists to the current stats of either of those two items and I'd shut up.

Add in new recipes using old ingredients. Make them difficult so there is a PITA factor to the rarer meats to keep them from flooding the market. People simply looking to skill up would stick with the easy, lower-stat recipes while those looking for good food would make the "MTP version." Sort of like the two versions of the quest for the protection of the cabbage spell.

Or something inspired by the new charms: dragon steaks give you a bane vs dragons on your weapon when in your top slot. Slumberfish pies give you slightly enhanced primals. This sort of thing would open up a lot of options for new recipes too, allowing things to be "better" without making old world recipes pointless.

Thanks for the support

-Fay / Tay

[Cinaed]

Risk vs Rewards?

I would agree that there is very little, if any, correlation such as RvR, or even CvR in Everquest, especially tradeskilling. This is even more evident in tailoring than in baking.

I think the main problem lies in how Verant/Sony handles the expansions. Everything's made bigger, better, faster, etc., to challenge the 65+ & bored crowd. That's fine, to an extent, but what happens is that all the stuff that was already in the game, gets left behind. Verant already has all these great recipes and items in place, but once the new ideas come out, old ideas are tossed away. I can remember when Storm Giant or Frost Giant steaks were the best things you could cook, unless you had the exceptional luck to get your hands on some Dragon Meat. Now? All it takes is foraging and a little determination to easily exceed those. I think we need to see more new recipies either be without stat boosts, or comprable to those already in game.

Of course, I think the tradeskill system is hopelessly out of whack for so many reasons, and our only real hope will lie in Everquest 2. The feeling you get when you make some tough recipie is good, I'll freely admit it, but I think most tradeskillers dream of the day when their patience and hard work earn them not only the ability to feel that, but to make stuff that is marketable, or that won't be made obsolete by some relatively easy to get drop. Can you remember when Tradeskill-made items, other than baking, were at the top, or near there, in their relative areas? Such as tailored or smithed armor? Now, the only reason people work on many tradeskills is just to be able to do quests, or because they have extra time, or want 250 in each tradeskill, or what have you.

Anyway, excellent letter, I agree

[Calabar]

I certainly agree that some of the old world recipes should be given new life, especially those that involve great risk. And new recipes would not be terribly hard to justify. An NPC could be introduced who discovered new herbs that bring out the true flavor of certain foods, such as dragon steaks, thus enhancing their stats. Adding one more hard to obtain ingredient should not be terribly difficult to do.

Of all the trade skills, I feel baking is the most fun. Hopefully your letter will bear fruit, so to speak.

[Faymar]

YAY!

Stats or no stats, I now have a stack of prepared weary wrass (*CHEER*) and am farming heavy clay (woot, crocks have a yield of 6! I missed that completely) to make the famous slumberfish pie.

*bounces around all over*

Tay's fishing journal to be updated shortly

[Maevenniia]

Hmm. maybe they could implement a new recipe with dragon meat –


combine #1 – roasted peppers = 2 Habanero peppers + spices + butter

combine #2 – Dragon gravy = pot + flour + milk + dragon meat

final combine – Dragon Pepper Steak

1 dragon meat + roasted peppers + spices + dragon gravy + non-stick frying pan


(having to sacrifice 2 dragon meats for this meal justifies better stats)

miraculous meal,
+5 to all stats/saves
effect: aura of health (+2 regen)

[Faymar]

Hmm, yield on wrass in cream sauce is 2. Yield on the pies is 2.

What am I going to do with 84 Large Slumberfish pies?

(can confirm btw that they are still the same stats and triv at 250)

[Lixivia]

just be glad you have more than 4 stat foods to choose from, brewers got 1 stat drink with PoP which is hard as heck to make and is used for a quest, and nothing with LoY.

although i agree about the dragon steak, but they used to be one of the best stat foods i believe before they came out with mtp and hmp's