What CS?

[Itek]

Hmm...

Upset about poor CS?

Have you applied to be a guide?

Yes. Good for you. Hope you like it.

No. Shut up then.

Anyone over the age of 18 and with 2 characters over level 10 can be a guide. Don't like not seeing guides on? Don't like petitions that go unanswered? Apply to be a guide TODAY. Don't think about it. Don't read the next post.

APPLY TODAY

Oh, and about petition times.

Guides are REQUIRED to answer all petitions.
Guides are REQUIRED to attempt to contact you at least 3 times. (they can contact you as long as you are logged in on the same account and server, even if you switch characters, but not if you switch accounts or servers)
UNLESS the petition is more than 3 hours old. If the petition is 3+ hours old and they are unable to contact you because you are offline they can then delete the petition. (Good guides will note bugs and things in their logs, which they forward for the GMs.)

With the advent of reduced CS staffing there are no longer "server GMs" assigned to specific Servers and Times. There is no more "these are the Server GM's Office Hours, contact them then or by email." In general if you have a serious issue a GM should be along to deal with it. (there are serverwide channels, so I presume there is a serverwide Guide/GM channel now) There are GMs on at all hours. Just more of them during "primetime" for the majority of players.

And remember, there will NOT be a volunteer Guide program in EQ2. And we are lucky to have one in EQ. (lots of volunteer Guide-ish programs have been eliminated)

People complaining about lousy CS are like people complaining about the government. If you didn't vote, too bad. If you don't apply to be a guide, too bad.

(Yes, I applied. Yes, I was a guide. No, I am not a guide now. Yes, I am bitter about it. No, I think most Guides are wonderful and underappreciated. Yes, most GMs will bend over backwards to help, unless helping would get them fired. For them it's a job and let's ask Lilosh about how hellish a CS job can be.)

[byelka]

IT takes a while to get a hold of GMs sometimes but

Once 30 min after winning a roll on a runed boster belt (Vox loot) worth about 30KP ATM

I went into the bazaar to prepare to sell it and boom crash came back only item gone was my new belt. Petitioned took nearly a week but I got it back =)

-Byelka

[Heartsong_Steelsoul]

I doubt there is a serverwide GM/Guide channel... all you would need is one person handing out the password and it would be compromised...

[Taushar]

No. Shut up then

Guides are REQUIRED to answer all petitions.
Guides are REQUIRED to attempt to contact you at least 3 times. (they can contact you as long as you are logged in on the same account and server, even if you switch characters, but not if you switch accounts or servers)
UNLESS the petition is more than 3 hours old. If the petition is 3+ hours old and they are unable to contact you because you are offline they can then delete the petition. (Good guides will note bugs and things in their logs, which they forward for the GMs.)

Hmm. ok. This is where the problem lies with guides system. Let's compare to the real world company, say phone company. I know this is not the best example but bear with me.

Let's say I call them to say I lost a bunch of important voice mails I saved on their voice mail system, which I pay for monthly. Their live operator only works from 9-5 and only way to reach them is to leave a voice mail with your home phone number, which I can't answer answer during the day because I work. They won't call me to another number because I have to be on that phone for them to fix the problem.

So they are required to answer all voicemail, it doesn't matter how long it takes, they will eventually. They are required to call you at least 3 times to reach me. Since the voice mail does not work, they try to call 3 times and then give up. Then after 3 days, they just delete my request and go on with the business.

Now, when I leave a voice mail for a request like that, of course I am expected to have my complaints heard, at least elevated to the technical specialist who can check on your status. Now, imagine if a bunch of those requests never gets elevated to the specialist because the live operators forgot to do it etc. Also, if I do manage to reach someone live they say, "I am sorry, I can't seem to find you ever having a voice mail system with us, are you sure you signed it up with us?" This despite my bill showing that I have been paying for that service.

Now, what kind of business can you run with a support system like that? Certainly FTC would be involved if they got enough complaints on that phone company. Most companies have live operator you can talk to around the clock. Not all services are performed at all hours but many will at least take a complain and give you a tracking number of sort so that you can follow up in person or on web to check the progress of the complaint.

Does this sound familiar? I am not saying that SoE should have CS 24/7 and be on every little complaint but as a business, and I do view EQ as a business, their support system lacks a bit as per standard.

Taushar

[Tinile]

I think perspective is necessary. Comparing something in EQ to RL stuff doesn't work. If you lose phone calls, you could lose business or important RL info. If you lose 5 blocks of ore, seriously, how does this impact you? We are talking missing pixels. If your petition times out, the repetition. How hard is that to do? Why is it so hard to do? Take some responsibility for getting your problem solved. Petition until you get a GM response. If you do not get your stuff reimbursed, that means the GM cannot do it because they don't see proof of you losing that item. Should they take your word for it? Then every idiot and his mother will hear that GMs reimburse everything and they will petition that they lost their fungi's when they never owned one.

Perspective... perspective.

[Taushar]

I think perspective is necessary. Comparing something in EQ to RL stuff doesn't work. If you lose phone calls, you could lose business or important RL info. If you lose 5 blocks of ore, seriously, how does this impact you? We are talking missing pixels. If your petition times out, the repetition. How hard is that to do? Why is it so hard to do? Take some responsibility for getting your problem solved. Petition until you get a GM response. If you do not get your stuff reimbursed, that means the GM cannot do it because they don't see proof of you losing that item. Should they take your word for it? Then every idiot and his mother will hear that GMs reimburse everything and they will petition that they lost their fungi's when they never owned one.

Perspective... perspective.

I beg to differ on this view. It's not about EQ vs. RL. It's all about product and it's support system. It's about company's dedication to customers. EQ is an entertaining commodity and SoE should treat is as an important part of their buisness. Matter of fact, without the bits and bytes or pixels, what business would they be in?

If you went to a movie and they lost the last reel of the the movie, would you be upset? Specially if you have no CS avaialble and all the workers at the theatre have attitude like i only work here and I can't help you. I mean besides, it's only a movie, who cares about the last 15 mins. It's not real and no important information was missed by the last reel, it didn't effect you personally. We pay to be entertained but we also expect a decent amount of support that goes with it.

All I am saying is that they should have process that works better. Yes, I do understand that someone may petition for things they never owned. However, how difficult is it to have a reliable database that gives accurate history of the items you have owned? I have been told several times that they can not find an items I have lost which werwe no drop items. Now days a database on servers stress six sigma quality. That is 99.9999 up time and it'd better have 100% data reliablity. I can understand that they have an lot of information to sort through but technology today is way too advanced to not have a good IS system to provide adequate support.

Recent server roll backs still reminds me that they are over their head on technology and just don't have a good process in place. I mean, if a company lost a couple weeks of company data, heads would roll. Of course I can't compare EQ database to a company database as far as importance (i.e.not "real", data) but when most of other companies can keep their data safe against disaster and provide easy way to access accurate data, why can't SoE? I work in the storage industry and I just don't see why they can't do it right. SoE is an entertaining company and they should keep their most important data intact. I'd be that their accounting system does not use the same kind of servers and infrastructure.

Taushar

[Krazick]

Comparing EQ to a Voice Mail System is not a good analogy

Comparing EQ to a Movie Theatre is a BETTER analogy.

OK Here is the situation... You buy a ticket, get your soda, and popcorn, go into the theatre and get your seat. The seat is sticky with soda spilled in the prior movie by someone else?

Do you throw a fit, stomp out, demand your ticket money, soda and popcorn to be refunded?
Do you complain and demand it be cleaned up before the movie starts?
Do you move to another "cleaner seat"?
Do you live with it?

What would you do if the soda is spilled on you while watching the movie, causing you lose your popcorn and soda on the floor?

What would you do if they lost the last reel of the film?

Or a more likely possibility... they lost power in the theatre?

What a normal Theatre management would do in the last two situations would be to refund your ticket, or give you a pass to a future showing. If they don't, then you, as the consumer, have the right to choose a different theatre.

In EQ... you have the right to choose a different MMORPG to play... Try DAoC, AO, Shadowbane, etc....

If the CS annoys you so much, that you can't play the game and have fun with it... then toss it... find another game to play elsewhere. Follow the hordes of folks that have left EQ. Find better service elsewhere...

If you come back with the comment "I tried the others, they have no Content... aren't any fun... have rotten XYZ... My friends don't play them... " then, you need to decide if the CS is so bad that you might as well give up on MMORPG as a hobby.

Get out of the house and take a walk... watch a base-ball game... go to a museum... meet someone new, in person for dinner.

[Taushar]

In EQ... you have the right to choose a different MMORPG to play... Try DAoC, AO, Shadowbane, etc....

If the CS annoys you so much, that you can't play the game and have fun with it... then toss it... find another game to play elsewhere. Follow the hordes of folks that have left EQ. Find better service elsewhere...

Here is my thought. If you had spent money on things like cable modem and network infrastructure and found out that you are not getting good customer support, do you drop everything and go to DSL connection and spend all the money to get it working again? I would rather spend time trying to make it work better with the cable company.

Same here in EQ, you spend time to get it to where you are enjoying the game, albeit support may not be there, do you just throw away and walk away? If that is the case then you would have missed all the changed SoE provided based on trader player feedbacks, new bank slots, stackable casks, etc. etc. I think they do listen. All I am trying to do is to say I don't feel the support is adequate for this game at this time. I am hoping that they would change that. Just because I am not satified with one aspect of the game, that doesn't mean I am not happy with the game overall. Afterall, the topic of this discussion is about CS.

Same thing with the theater analogy you provided. If the the power went out on your favorite theater and management does not give you a refund or rain check on the ticket, would you just walk out without saying anything and start going to a theatre 30 mins away and lot worse shape than one you have been going to for years? I would point out the errors of their judgement and try to change their policy so hopefully in the future they would give me a refund in that situation. Maybe that means installing a new technology in theater to facilitate the refund process. Would I stop going to that theatre just because of that incident? No. Am I going to be happy about the policy? No. If a friend or a strange asked me about the theater will I not tell them about this policu? Heck no. I would give them an honest opinion about the policy but would still probably recommend the theater. Same goes for EQ. This is a forum to express opinions and I am expressing mine about the CS of SoE.

Taushar

[Itek]

Taushar-

You applied to be a guide yesterday right?

Good...

Let's try to remember a couple things...

1) Guides are volunteers. Period. They are NOT the guy on the end of the line when you call the phone company. (By the way, if your phone isn't working, how do you call the phone company? I've never been able to figure out that one...)

2) Another bit of guide trivia ...

THERE CAN ONLY BE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF PETITIONS IN THE QUE AT ANY ONE TIME ON ANY ONE SERVER.

They can't, simply CAN'T keep petitions around until you come back. They would quickly fill up the "bin" and be unable to answer new petitions. Think you don't like waiting 30 minutes for a guide to open your petitions? Try this one on for size...

Itek: "Sorry for being rude, but I put in a petition an hour ago and there are 4 guides on."
Lirius: "Sorry, the QUE is full. We can't open any new petitions until these 30 people who haven't been on in two days come back so we can talk to them."

Ever called a voice mail system and gotten "that users voicemail box is full" message?

Heartsong-

Um... GMs have a hidden chat channel which can't be accessed by non-GM flagged accounts. So the technology exists to keep non-GM flagged accounts from accessing a GM-only channel.

Plus giving out the password to a GM channel would result in...
1) Loss of GM account
2) Banning
3) Lawsuit
all in very short order.

But, I have not been a guide since well before the advent of serverwide chat channels so, again, I simply presume that one is available. Barring that the old standby of "log to chat, tell Chat-GM to send next available GM to Veeshan" probably still works. (NOTE: I was -not- a guide on Veeshan, and NO I will not tell you what server I worked on.)

[Darknyss]

I think the principle of the matter is the fact that they started charging us MORE in order to give us the so called "better" Customer Service... but I don't think the majority of people think they are getting it.

I see some people happy with the times that the GMs work, but that doesn't mean that there aren't times when the GM's are blatantly unhelpful. The other problem is that in ANY customer service, there is usually a higher power (or manager, or better business bureau) that can be contacted in order to show this complaint.

Imagine this scenario:

"hello Mr. GM, sir, I lost 50pp when I opened my inventory, it must have been a bug, as I have my log files... as to looting 50pp from a hill giant and now it's gone..."

"ummm, no you didn't... get the heck out of here, loser"

"can I speak to your manager, Mr. GM"

"I don't have one, haha"

YOU HAVE BEEN DISCONNECTED

and there's just nothing you can do about it... doubt it would even be read if you sent the log files in to the website e-mail...

is this an every day occurance? NO... but you may feel just as shafted for any VALID problem you want help with that the GM's can't, won't, or don't fix for you.

[kiztent]

2 comments:

1 - Play on Stormhammer if you want better service.

2 - The petition queue gets clogged with camp squabbles in HHK, in game weddings and the like. I liked the response of the test GM to that. Instead people complain about service and keep cluttering the queue.

[splunge]

2 - The petition queue gets clogged with camp squabbles in HHK, in game weddings and the like. I liked the response of the test GM to that.

So did most of the rest of Test Server. =)

Edit: link removed as our message board moved
(The message was about when the developwers were tired of all the whiny ignorant /testbuffers in HHK and make everyone in the zone PVP. Mass hillarity ensues and the test server regulars find new respect for the developers.)

Im kinda bummed i missed out on it... would have loveed to be there to endlessly slaughter whiny beggy /testbuffers with glee. =)

Im glad the devs (we dont have GMs on test) dont have to be polite to the customers like GMs do. People *have* found themselves bound under Nagafens feet before after mouthing off to one of em..

[Taushar]

I think the principle of the matter is the fact that they started charging us MORE in order to give us the so called "better" Customer Service... but I don't think the majority of people think they are getting it.

I totally agree with this. After they raised the fees, first thing they did was took away server GM positions. Now all the petitions from all servers are handled by few GMs. I know there are guides but they really can't seem to do much, they just elevate the issues to GMs. I guess there are times when a guide can help, like when stuck in underworld, but I am a gating class and don't really need help there.

I play at late hours and I have not seen a GM logged on more than once or twice a month. My last 3 petitions just went no where and I eventually gave up. I just feel that some changes are needed on support front to make this a more enjoyable game.

Lastly, let's look at the hard dollar values. I don't know how many people work at SoE on EQ but I would imagine it's not more than 300-400 people, maybe less. From what I understand, the typical profit margin on games is just huge, like 50-60% range. If you look at their revenue model, 450,000 people times $13 (not counting stormhammer) equals to about $5.8 million per month. That equals $70 million per year. Now take in to account twice a year expansions at about $25 (this is assume to be their prices to distributor at $45 retail price) yields about $13 million assuming only half of the people upgrade. This is not including other revenue, like EQ for playstation etc. If you add them all out, I would assume income of about $100 million per year plus.

Now if you take 50% margin, it's about $50 million per year they make. Ok, let's be conservative and say they only have income of $75 million a year and profit margin of 30%. That still leaves them with cash of $22 million per year. Why not sink some of that in to customer support? Better yet, spend a million or two and upgrade the database to make it easier to find missing items and more fault tolerant servers so that the servers don't go down so often. This is a long term investment and since it's a capital equipment, they can write it off over 5 years.

What I am saying here is that we do pay for the services but we are not getting our money's worth on that aspect of the game. I am pretty happy with the content creation and playability of the game and they are doing a good job of that. Just need to focus on one area that I feel they lack.

Taushar

[Inyidd]

It seems to me to be useless to try to guess how much money SOE makes off of EQ. 30% profit margin may be too high. Even 5% may be too high - might be too low, as well. Given rising costs of high end bandwidth, equipment maintenance and replacement, renewing service contracts, taxes, insurances, employees, etc, etc, etc... and given that we (as far as I know) don't know anything about the budget sheets at SOE, we're just spitting *ahem* in the wind, so to speak.

As for having to pay more to get "better CS", unless you're on Stormhammer, you haven't. Unless I missed something, the raise in monthly subscription cost was to help cover rising maintenance costs.

And yes, even my opinion is mere conjecture and subject to being completely wrong.

--Inyidd

[Taushar]

I must give them kudos for getting on the new issue so quickly. I hope no one lost out on this deal.

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/Forum3/HTML/044034-2.html

Taushar