Announcement

**Lilosh** · 06-20-2003, 02:07 AM

I have a terrible habit of playing devil's advocate.

Those who pay attention to my posts have probably see me argue both sides of any given issue, on different weeks.

So please forgive me.

How on earth does the fact that you are trying to skill up on tailoring give you more of a right to XXX then someone farming it for plat?

And, since you mentioned that they used a "We can get exp" line on you, I assume you are also farming greenies. So if someone's red to you , it's a moot point. You're both in area where you are farming mobs for their drops.

Granted, when they say you can have it, then reneg.... That's one thing.

But farming for need is no different then farming for greed. Unless you're in the same guild , or same pickup group, then I find it hard to accept that you have the moral high ground.

*shrug*

Arguing against the Farmers for Greed next week,
-Lilosh

**Malathos** · 06-20-2003, 06:34 AM

Spent a good portion of yesterday camping the heart spiders in Guk...
so I would have enough silks to make enough cured silk masks ...
so I could get my danged tailoring skill up high enough ...
so I wouldn't keep failing in making leather padding ...
so I've got enough padding for a decent run at fine plate ...
so I can get my smithing skill up high enough ...
so I can have a decent chance of success with dwarvish cultural ...
so I can get some better armour ...
so I can hunt frost giants without getting pounded into the ground ...
so I can collect enough toes to kick start my first shawl

used up almost three stacks of silk yesterday - almost had me in tears when I realised how much I could have sold them for

I've also started baking as well (looking ahead in the shawl series). But at least I don't have to skill up on fish rolls or something in order to kick start any of my other skills (please, someone tell me I don't :shock: )

**Suva** · 06-20-2003, 07:29 AM

I get annoyed by stuff like that too,

I've been making the arctic wyvern armor recently and when i was tired of fishing I would go kill some wyverns for hides. I had people getting upset since they are all green to me and they get exp. So i've started recently just bringing cash with me though and offering the bazaar going rate to buy the hides off the people in the zone and found i get more hides that way and I get my fish too. Sometimes buffing the quadders gets me discounts too and it's less frustrating.

**Sylphan** · 06-20-2003, 10:07 AM

Nice post. I sympathize with you finding everything camped so often.

Sorry to choose your thread, but it's time I speak up about something. If you don't spend a great deal of time outside of xp groups you deserve to be poor. Get used to the idea that if you want good gear and lots of materials you'll have to get a lot fewer levels.

If you get 50 levels in 50 days of /played or less, you DESERVE to be poor. That's FAST. You didn't spend nearly enough time raiding, farming gear, combining, and farming platinum.

If you get 50 levels in 100 days of /played or less, and you do a lot of tradeskills, you DESERVE to be poor. Doing tradeskills adds to your expenses and time, you need to do even more farming to support them.

For level 60 double those numbers, or a little less than double if you xp in PoP.

When I got to level 50 I had more than 150 days played and had only seriously taken up one tradeskill, I certainly wasn't to 250 yet. Now with over 300 days of played time on just one of my characters, I still haven't reached level 65 yet. That's a real 300 days of playtime -- not trader time in bazaar, or staying logged in overnight, or letting friends use my character for buffs, and very little time spend waiting LFG. That's because I spent so much time farming gear and plat and doing combines to support myself. As a result, I can afford all the armor, spells, and spider silks I need, within reason.

Saying you're level 53 with level 20 gear says just one thing to me: you leveled too fast. It doesn't tell me you are genuinely poor.

**Traska** · 06-20-2003, 10:27 AM

For a lot of people, ALL games are zero-sum. You're in Quake, it's kill that guy or he kills you. You're in Warcraft, it's wipe his army out or he wipes your out. Now you're in EQ... it's "If I let him have these spawns, that's less spawns I'll have."

It stinks, but it's the way things are it seems.

**kiztent** · 06-20-2003, 11:11 AM

*cough* mana vials *cough*.

No enchanter HAS to be poor. Guess you can sit and crank the little buggers out since the camps you want to take are owned by farmers.

**Inyidd** · 06-20-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Malathos

used up almost three stacks of silk yesterday - almost had me in tears when I realised how much I could have sold them for

Did you farm the silk? Then that's a lot of plat you didn't spend in the bizarre. My most recent "Tradeskill Happy Day (TM)" I used up about 4 to 5 stacks of crystalline silk swatches getting my tailoring up to 123. Could I have sold them in the bazaar? Sure! I think I make enough cash selling velium and other drops to offset a "loss" (which isn't) not selling stuff I actually use.

Just different perspectives.

--Inyidd

**Itek** · 06-20-2003, 12:10 PM

My junk

I am level 53. I have _80_ played days.

I .... obtained 50k plat... recently.

10k drogmor (required to avoid sit agro, sit agro + tash agro + PoInnovation = death = exp loss)
10k jade reaver for my wife
3 brewing trophy attempts = 18k
buying Improved Superior Camo for my wife = 5k

my bank account = 5200
my wife's account = 2k

I quested or looted EVERY PIECE of equipment I, my wife, my druid alt and her cleric - beastlord - rogue alts wear. (well, the beastlord quested some of it's stuff)

Liosh ... 53 + 3 = ??? *ding* _56_+ ...

Now, let me see if I can remember WHERE a party of 56+ people could go that would give them BOTH exp and GOOD LOOT??? *ponder ponder think think*

And... let's see... are those zones zones where they would be competing with me for spawns....

Where, oh WHERE, did I claim I would have more right to spawns than ANYONE else.... (hint: I didn't)

In FACT....

I don't mind waiting my turn.
I don't mind other people wanting exp and plat.

The POINT, as if a primal scream needs a point, is that if people are standing between me and things I _need_ to become a better toon... they should not act so surprised when... I am NOT a better toon.

I am broke BECAUSE I refuse to make money at YOUR expense. If I need plat I go looking for mobs that drop PLAT, not tradeskill items. I claim the moral high ground because I _HUNT_ rather than _FARM_.

Name a silk dropping spider that ISN'T green at 53 and ISN'T in Velk's Lab. I will go hunt them. I spent enough time in Velk's Lab to know a couple things.

1) Soloing them as a 53 enchanter while they give exp... very hard. And impossible if there is anyone else in the zone.

2) They drop the No Drop threads by the armfull .... or not at all. Very streaky. I got the amount I needed for 5th shawl so it's time to move over and let someone else loot up, unless I fail and have to come back.

3) They drop the silks used for skilling up VERY rarely. In a week+ of hunting them... I got maybe 8 swatches.

4) I can get 20 swatches in an hour in CC.

5) I would rather get 20 swatches in an hour hunting greens than one or two a day, on the RARE days I can GET a group in Velk's. (Sorry, we have a shaman. Sorry, I'm a level 60 twink in The-Server-Uber-Guild and my PL'er is a 65 cleric.)

Now everyone railing on me for being frustrated take a step back...

I could have very easily INSISTED on a rotation at any of these camps.

I don't. When people come up to my camps I offer to rotate with them, or to group up and split the drops. Because it's the rules, and because it's NOT a zero sum game.

When I was in Velk's frigging DESPERATE for threads for the quest, I joined a two-boxer who needed me like a hole in the head. But he was nice enough to let me loot the threads he didn't need. Silver Chitin Hand Wraps dropped. I had previously agreed that all I wanted were the threads. He offered me a roll for it, I told him to keep them. Because he would have gotten them anyway if he hadn't been willing to share.

Yeah, I'm an idiot for turning down a 2-3k bazaar item. But I didn't NEED that item, I needed the threads, and wouldn't have gotten them otherwise.

A person in my guild needed cash transfered.
I was in the Nexus looking for my KEI fix (gosh I want C2 BAD...)
So I pop over and wait for them to transfer.
Other people in the guild offer to help for a "percentage" ... *grin*
My guildmate hands me 15k.
Logs on their other account / mule and says "you can keep 100p if you want"
Huh?
I don't even charge STRANGERS to transfer equip / plat ....

A little later another guildie asks if any Enchanters are available to enchant some stuff...
Sure, I was bored (everything on my list was camped)
Did a little enchanting after getting KEI ... thought she wanted STACKS of stuff... turned out just a few items, though they were high mana cost.
She gave me 30 plat when I handed the items back to her.
I tried to return the money, she said "for your KEI costs"

A few months ago I enchanted several BAGS of mitiril for a TOTAL STRANGER who asked. When we were done (he had to run to Felwithe, as a Dark Elf I can't afford to have illusion drop there, and a bad history of going LD right when I don't want to. He forgot to LEV and fell one step on a staircase. Dead. Had to wait for corpse recovery) he offered to pay me 100 plat. I had spent 3 full bars of mana, not counting waiting around for them to show up to START enchanting. I said "no need, it can't hurt having more high skill smiths around."

Next time I am bored I'm going to go check mana vial prices in the bazaar. My buddy makes good profit on those, and sells out fast.

My buddy also "buys low, sells high" Last week he bought a KEI scroll for 17 and sold it for 23. He's doing it again now. He's done the same on several occasions with other items.

I fully acknowledge that it's "exp, plat, equipment, or tradeskill stuff pick not more than 2" when it comes to hunting. There are no perfect camps.

I was bored, frustrated and mainly mad at myself for not playing by the same rules everyone else seems to. "Me first." Now I know better. Even tradeskill people say "Hijack the market, hold us at knifepoint and rob us, we don't mind, heck we ENCOURAGE IT."

So I guess the consensus is "stop being Mr. Nice Itek, fasten the other guy, it's what the game is all about."

Kiztent-

Yeah, you are right. But let me see if I can illustrate my point EXACTLY using your example.

Itek wants spider silks for skilling.
Pharmer is camping spiders to sell silks.
Itek makes money selling ManaVials to TraderX.
Itek buys silks from Pharmer.
Pharmer transfers plat to TraderX to buy ManaVials.

See?
Pharmer jacks up the price of silk to pay for HIS tradeskill.
But because the price of silk is high I have to jack up the price of ManaVials.

Pharmer is actually SHOOTING HIMSELF IN THE FOOT.

Of course the economy is not that simple, it's a trivialized example made to form the point.

CEO raises the price of A_Car so he can make more money.
Cars cost more money so people spend more on cars.
People have less money, so they raise their own prices.
Cost of hamburgers goes up.
Cost of living goes up.
CEO has to pay his workers more.
CEO realizes reduced profits.
CEO decides to raise prices.

Government decides that the cost of living has gone up.
Government raises the minimum wage.
Employers paying minimum wage have to pay more.
Employers realize less profits, and raise prices.
Cost of living goes up.

It's called INFLATION and it's bad.

It comes from a false sense of scarcity. It comes from the belief that LIFE is a zero sum game.

The Great Depression.
Caused by the stock market crash. The value of stocks plummeted for reasons far to complex for even the grossest simplification.

Stock prices go down.
Company is worth less, at least on paper.
Company hasn't lost employees, resources, products, or anything else that PHYSICALLY existed the day before.
Company A panics and fires staff and reduces prices in an attempt to "preserve market share"
Company B which competes with A is forced to also reduce prices "to preserve market share" and has to reduce staff to maintain income.
Repeat... and repeat...
People out of work have no income and so don't spend money.
Market shrinks.
Company A renews cycle... with other companies following suit.
More people out of work = less money circulating = smaller and smaller markets.

It was a psychotic dog chasing it's own tail. Caught in a deadly feedback loop. Because NOT ONE person stopped and said "gee, what REALLY changed from Wednesday to Friday except the PAPER value of the company."

Perception is NOT reality.

"Bill Gates is the richest man on earth." (ok, let's not argue that, he's not but let's presume it were true)

Why is Gates rich? Because he's the biggest owner of MicroSoft stock. His "wealth" is based on the value of that stock.

What would happen if he started selling his stock, to convert the PAPER value of the stock into liquid cash.

The price of the stock would fall.

Bill Gates is the most VALUABLE man so long as he doesn't try to cash in too much. He can declare dividends and pay himself whatever he wishes. But the MOMENT he starts to sell the stock will be worthless.

Again, this is a Primal Scream of frustration, born of boredom and my own desire to enjoy the game at NO ONE ELSES expense. It's why I avoid PvP games like the plague. I don't feel my enjoyment should come from directly taking it from others. (had enough of that back in High School many many moons ago)

Dr. Strangelove or How I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb.

"I have seen the promised land of plat, and I can travel there on the backs of my tradeskilling brothers."

*cracks whip*

Ok folks 1k for a Vial of Purified Mana. That's it, lift the sedan chair. Mush.

**Froni Thunderpaws** · 06-20-2003, 03:16 PM

If you have fun being nice - be nice. Simple as that. There is no reason to compromise playing the game in the way that you enjoy just to be more competitive.

I guess I enjoy playing much the same way you Itek, and yes it can get frustrating or boring, but when I get a chance to really help someone out it really makes me happy. Yes the game would be better if so many folks weren't into trying to get an advantage over others, but the toons have some reflection on the character of the people playing them. I can see that the player training other folks is pretty much the same as the reckless driver on the verge of road rage. The one bright spot is that there really aren't governments in EQ with us that are manipulating public opinion for private interests, so there is still a bit of escapism to be enjoyed.

If you are interested in a game that requires cooperation (and yes people can still get competitive) check out A Tale in the Desert. Interesting game and premise.

**Gnarl** · 06-20-2003, 05:17 PM

First, I hear yer pain brutha, sing it out loud!

My wife needed Iron Oxide to train up pottery. I knew that there was ground spawn and that it dropped in Steamfont and more to the point Steamfont is an area a post 10 can hunt in. Now, I could've gone there with my 50+ Enchanter and ***** the zone, but, I thought I'd try to have fun hunting the elementals, leveling my Mage and watching the ground spawns.

Note: this was well before they opened up Iron Oxide to other spawns in other zones.

What do you think I found when I got there? Farmers ****** the zone. I was able to work with some of them but some were just jerks (the nice ones farmed all but my little corner leaving me enough spawn to hunt, the jerks just ignored me and cleared the whole area). The ONE and only time I've petitioned player behaviour was one of the jerks in this zone (I'd talked to him trying to ask him nicely to share the kills as I understand the play nice rules to mean that if I can get exp there, I get precedence). Oddly, he was gone, poof, right after that and oddly I felt like **** for doing it.

Into the present: innovative bolts. What happens when a high level tinker is in a group hoping to see them? They are claimed by a non-gnome so they can sell them in the bazaar at a jacked up price. <sigh>

Now, on the constructive side: I've always been able to farm LOADS of silk by hunting in EK. Just kill all the lions, snakes, wolves, etc, that infest the hill by the HPH zone (I think the Mucktails are there)... it's also the hill on which the Druid epic part for the DE Corruptor is done... the wolves, snakes, etc, are PHs for the spiders. The spiders up there, NOT the carrion spiders, drop as much as 8 silks per kill... I get stacks in short order and my wife gets them even faster with her ranger.

So, if you still need silk, go hunt in EK, leave the other zones to the duffers who don't have a clue.

GnarliAnna
250 Jeweler
199 Tailor
150 Smith
130 Potter
186 Fletcher
180 Baker
100 Fisher

**Silound** · 06-20-2003, 05:24 PM

Incidently, have you tried South Ro for silks? I can grab a stack or two an hour there slaughtering all the spawns, and make a few pp off the occasionaly SG. No luck on AC yet though =/

Silound
Troubadour of Prexus

**Reflan** · 06-20-2003, 09:56 PM

The most reliable way to get money has ALWAYS been to level. At higher levels you can do everything from farming silk and fine steel and pelts infinitely faster to going and farming GOOD places that drop real loot that has the chance to make you several to dozens of K richer in a single day or in one shot. And, being higher level is necessary to get into most of the best guilds, which is one of the quickest and easiest ways to get rich and stay rich. Wanting to be rich and be low level is wanting to do things the hardest way possible. Don't do that to yourself.

Itek asked where oh where a 56 could go for cash. That didn't use to be a mystery to anybody. A bare minimum of effort should suffice to answer that. Some of these spots give you both experience AND loot. Many of them will give you the chance to earn enough to simply buy silks or whatever from farmers instead of grousing. It is not that they are farming the silks that necessarily keeps others from getting silks; it's that people don't really think much about the ways to get good value for their time so they can just use what they camp or kill in exp groups to finance their purchases from farmers when spots are taken -- or as a matter of course. Here are a few spots.

Sebilis(HUGE loot possibility here, from many gems to haste belts to weapons to cobalt armor, some of which even drops right at the zoneline(!). The uber loot place in the game for years. This stuff STILL sells for the most part very very well. Then there's Howling Stones(Charassis) for loot and experience. Want exp and a nice 15 str 15 wis belt? Maidens End. Could a group of 56's farm Twilight for swirling shadows? You bet, to the tune of 1k to 1500pp per hour(total) on my server for the swirling shadows, and a couple of hundred per hour each player more for the lore items that the weakie nameds drop on the island with the robes, not to mention all the spells. I soloed it at 60, so a group of 56's should have no problem. Then there's Velks lab, super easy to get to, the bricks pieces silks blocks are all great for cash or for tradeskill use, and stuff drops there that still sells, too.

Another thing that people don't think of when they count how supposedly poor they are is the level of their equipment. While say the crystal spider eyes from Velks is mediocre now for a great many people, at the time it dropped it was pretty darn good. People at this point in the game can still fight the same monsters we old-timers did for the same experience if not better, but are doing it in fantastic gear in comparison to what we had at the time. If you are broke because nothing you have is uber enough and you have to keep going broke buying better, you may just need a mental adjustment, not a bank account adjustment.

Believe me, almost anyone these days could get by with far, far worse gear and still do very well in the game, especially people in their 50's and below. You really do NOT need to empty out your bank account buying the latest and greatest; you can get by a lot better by just playing better, being patient, and keeping your money in your pocket. Besides easing your mind and your ego, that way has the additional benefit of ensuring that when a really, really important purchase comes along, you will not miss out and gnash your teeth and wail because of it -- you'll just buy it. It took me a very long time to save up the 100k to buy my torpor spell about when Luclin came out(and shamans had no better alternatives at any price). And once I had the cash, it still took another six months of looking. Thank goodness I had it when it was time! That thing was only ever sold once or twice a year openly back then.

Oh, another thing -- having multiple alts and buying thing's for other people's toons is also a guaranteed way to ramp up the difficulty of keeping plat astronomically. People who do that most truly of all have no reason to fret or complain that they have trouble getting cash. Not that there's a thing wrong with twinking alts or just clicking the destroy button with your cash, but you can't have everything.

**Cigarskunk** · 06-21-2003, 01:30 AM

The worst part about everything that follows is that it's comming from a low INT troll to what is most likely a group of high INT/WIS casters.

Spent a good portion of yesterday camping the heart spiders in Guk...
so I would have enough silks to make enough cured silk masks ...
so I could get my danged tailoring skill up high enough ...
so I wouldn't keep failing in making leather padding ...

Spent 700-1k plat skilling on mandrake roots to get tailoring high enough to not fail leather padding - made all of those into MTPs so real cost for that skill session was less than 300. You could have most likely sold those swatches you used for 600 or so and saved yourself having made/bought 5 stacks of kiolas.

If you don't spend a great deal of time outside of xp groups you deserve to be poor. Get used to the idea that if you want good gear and lots of materials you'll have to get a lot fewer levels.

At 54 I've got better overall gear then most of the 65 tanks in my guild - only our three MAs have more better gear and they didn't get most of it till they started working PoP on thier own and the guild started meriting them ToV drops. Additionally, at any given point in time, I'm one of the top 10 wealthiest characters in my guild despite the fact that I've been dropping several k plat on gear every other week now.

If you get 50 levels in 100 days of /played or less, and you do a lot of tradeskills, you DESERVE to be poor. Doing tradeskills adds to your expenses and time, you need to do even more farming to support them.

I'm a GM baker with trophy and about 1400 points in tradeskills, I waste tons of time doing quests and faction work, am one of the higher scoring raiders in my guild and as mentioned, one of the best equiped and wealthiest characters in my guild.

Saying you're level 53 with level 20 gear says just one thing to me: you leveled too fast. It doesn't tell me you are genuinely poor.

How's about being level 54 with gear to the point that I can't upgrade any peice now for less than 10k or via mob no drop stuff? We're both playing the same game, EQ1, right?

For a lot of people, ALL games are zero-sum.

Oh - a fellow person who understands this - praise the lord! :shock: Sadly, this is correct - if I had a plat for every time I've heard someone espouse zero-sum as reality in EQ, I'd have the 100k horse and an Epic MQ.

Could I have sold them in the bazaar? Sure! I think I make enough cash selling velium and other drops to offset a "loss" (which isn't) not selling stuff I actually use.

It's called "opportunity cost" - what you could have done had you chosen option 2 instead of option 1.

************************************************** ***********

Now, for the constructive advice - how to skill up your tailoring.

1) Goto lower Guk and hit the bedroom - right near there is a back way to the lower levels which can best be described as heart spider alley - there are tons of the suckers in there and as a 56 chanter, you should be able to mow your way up and down without issue.

2) South Ro - whether or not there's an AC camp going, there's going to be tons of spiders - I've made a killing on swatches in my younger days just playing clean up for the AC campers who are slaughtering the entire zone - don't forget to mine the DEs there too - they're always good for a few stacks of silk.

3) DL - those drider babes were also great for silk while I was XPing, plus, you should be able to also easily mow down the giants for easy plat and vendor bait drops - having brute hides to also sell/trade/give to halflings is just a bonus.

4) EK - buy a stack of SOW potions and then start slaughtering the place - griffins make very effective pets and can cut through the EK mobs almost as fast as an SK. Don't buy the old myth that the druids and rangers can outfarm everyone in EK - my buddy always manages to drive those @#$%s out everytime one of them feels clever enough to try to compete with him. You're also going to get a ton of HQ and MQ cat pelts which can be turned into padding and/or sold for being made into quivers - **** the swamp in front of Grobb or the Halas area for your threads.

5) LoY ribbons - bring a few hundred plat down to Steamfront - merchant mine for the spring water and spam the zone every 5-10 minutes that you are 56 chanter buffing as well as paying 1-5plat each for the suckers - the time, cost and opportunity costs of using silk to get to 158 are easily greater than the actual plat you'll spend doing gold ribbons to 162.

6) How's your ToV faction? Head out to WW and start farming hounds if the dragons are cool with you. Farm the mamoths too - skill up making the padding you're going to need for the 8th shawl and sell/trade the mamoth furs in the bazaar.

7) Get in a Top Shelf group (where the SCHW drop) in Velks - contrary to popular beleif, you WILL get some nice crystal silk drops there (a stack of swatches an hour with an aggresive group is common) as well as a boat load of velium to sell/trade or even skill up your smithing on with all those extra hound furs you've skilled off of.

As a 56 chanter, any and all of these options should do you very nicely - you won't be stepping on anyone's toes, they're all relatively easy and competition free and they get the job done fast.

**Aerinha** · 06-21-2003, 06:02 AM

Ah, the bedroom in lower Guk. I leveled my warrior there, with my husband's Chanter and a couple of friends. We had such a blast! We could pull all the GIBs at once and kill them all; We pulled 5 spiders in a room at once, on purpose, so often it was routine. We freaked out a guildie of mine doing that, but I have seldom had so much fun with my warrior. Our group cleared it from the GIBs(Greater Ice Boned Skeleltons) through the spiders and undead frogs, to the gargoyles. My husband was working his tailoring up at the time so all the silk went to him. I kept the skelly bones to sell. It was wonderful. We were in our high twenties/low thirties when we started, and we finally moved on when my warrior was hitting 40, first to Tenebrous Mountains for acrylia(my fletching, his tailoring) and now to Gunthak(time to work on pottery. Zombie skins!).
(No, we had no higher level person buffing us, and the only time anyone had KEI in the group was when we were joined sometimes by our friend's Druid and his wife, a cleric and KEI addict. If she ever comes back to play again she is going to be so bummed about KEI not sticking to under 45s anymore...)

Announcement

Finally seen the pile of plat at the end of the tunnel

Finally seen the pile of plat at the end of the tunnel

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