Faster weapons proc more

[kiztent]

No, wait. They don't.

http://forums.interealms.com/shaman/showthread.php?threadid=10861

[lonewylfe]

Would be neat to see them do "added" procs, like the spells buffs rangers get. Esp since those seem to affect the amount of procs the weapon alone does.

[Lothay]

Makes me wish I had bothered to taks statistics in college.

The conclusions are not too shocking. If procs are a function of time (as thier data sugguests) rather than delay, more swings doesn't mean more procs.

But good to know.

~Lothay

[KyrosKrane]

This is interesting.

I was reading on the Paladins of Norrath message board earlier. One of the folks there did a similar, extensive study of proc rates. His conclusion was that weapons with an innate proc (such as those tested on the shaman boards) will proc more per unit time if they have a lower delay or you get haste, whereas procs granted by spells will proc at a consistent rate per unit time, regardless of how often you swing during that time. In other words, getting a lower delay weapon or haste would help you proc more if the proc is on the weapon, but it would have no effect on the proc rate of a spell. (The examples studied were Divine Might and Instrument of Nife, two paladin spells that provide a random proc.)

This directly contradicts the study posted on the shaman boards. Their conclusion was that weapons with an innate proc will proc consistently per unit time, regardless of weapon delay or the number of swings within that unit of time.

OTOH, I could be misremembering the PoN study. They might have been studying how proc rates vary with DEX, not how they vary with delay. In other words, if you raise your dex, you get more weapon procs per unit time, but not more spell procs.

OK, now I've managed to confuse myself.

I'll link this on the PoN boards (if it's not there already) and see if we can get some feedback.

[KyrosKrane]

OK, posted on PoN for clarification here:

http://pub148.ezboard.com/fpaladinsofnorrathgeneral.showMessage?topicID=1830 9.topic

[Dunthor Warsmith]

I never got to read first hand either of the PoN tests - with Ghoulbane for innate proc, and Divine Might / Instrument of Nife for buff proc. I've seen numerous posts by the number crunchers on that board mention (in other topics) that the buff procs are constant per unit time. I *think* I've seen posts that say weapon procs are also constant per unit time, but I'm not sure.

Looking over the shaman post, it seems it agrees. They held constant *number of swings*, which since there are variable delays makes time non-constant. I don't know any formula for equating delay to time, or the effects of hastes and slows on delay. However, they provide a modified delay which I will assume is correct, and if I remember right delay is linear with respect to time, so it can just be considered a different time unit.

Thus, they do have one column in their chart which is proc per unit time: P%/Dly.

P% is Procs/Swings, which is an attempt to approximate proc probability. So P% is chance to proc on any given swing. But that's not what we care about. We care about average procs per unit time, which is basically the same as proc probability per unit time. And that's what P%/Dly is, proc probability per unit time. And if you notice, that colum is entirely 20-22, with one 23. Since this test is based on a random event with a fixed probability, that's close enough for me to call constant per unit time (I've been away from statistics too long to actually try to analyze it :P).

So as far as I can tell, the PoN and the Shaman tests agree - procs are constant per unit time, and therefore are unaffected by delay, haste, and slow.

[Ruatha]

I don't know any formula for equating delay to time

DLY/10 = Number of seconds between swings under optimal lag conditions

or the effects of hastes and slows on delay.

There are two ways to classify Haste. There is "Swing Increase" and there is "Delay Reduction." These aren't different TYPES of haste, mind you. Just two ways of looking at it.

A DLY 60 weapon will swing 10 times in one minute.
A DLY 30 weapon will swing 20 times in one minute.

Conversely:

A weapon that swings 10 times in one minute has a DLY of 60.
A weapon that swings 20 times in one minute has a DLY of 30.

Did we reduce the DLY? Or did we increase the number of swings?

Answer: Both. You can say that the DLY was reduced by 50% (from 60 to 30) OR you can say that the swings were increased by 100% (from 10 to 20). Just depends on which way of looking at it is more advantageous for your current situation.

That said, most of the time when you hear haste values reported in game, they're reported in values of "Swing Increase". When someone says that the FBSS has a 21% haste, that's "Swing Increase" haste. It means that you will swing 21% more often in any given time frame than without the FBSS.

[Angelsyn]

Actually, according to a patch message some time back, it's clear that one proc'ing weapon can be coded to proc more or less often than another proc'ing weapon.

It was in regards to the Cleric Hammers. The patch message said that the Hammers were tweaked to reduce their proc-rate.

It is known (from very extensive testing) that a very high DEX will increase the frequency of a weapon-proc.
It is believed (from very extensive testing) that a very, very high DEX will very slightly increase the frequency of spell-procs (like the Ranger spells & IoN).
It is believed (from very extensive testing) that Haste has no effect on the frequency of spell-procs.

[Axterix EnObelix]

procs are constant per unit time, and therefore are unaffected by delay, haste, and slow.

Not entirely true. It's basically unaffected IF your number of swings is reduced or increased as much as your delay.

There is one situation where that isn't the case. The warrior's AE rampage AA ability. It's timing is independent of haste or slow. The number of swings is based upon the number of targets. Which means a warrior with an Earthshaker who you slow 75% will get 4x the procs on his rampage attack, compared to a non-slowed warrior. Assuming no haste item, of course.