Charging for Combines

[Neebat]

I'd like to rant a second about the inconsistency in how tradeskillers charge to combine things for other people.

I have all the tradable parts for a smith to make a GM chest symbol of storms. I'm offering 5k for a successful combine. I know that's not much, but I'm just a poor hobbit and I've got a BP that's not useful without that aug. I went and got all the components myself, specificly so the smith wouldn't be risking anything.

I've found one smith who can do the combine. He turned down the chance because 5k is not worth his time. He won't click combine for less than 20k.

Now, I've talked to several different smiths who can make the Master symbols and they all say that once they complete the GM symbol quest, they'll be happy to combine for free. I told each of them about the one GM smith and they all seem to agree that it's ridiculous to turn down money when you're not risking anything.

Usually when asking for a combine like this, I have some backup materials and I let the craftsman keep leftovers. I keep hoping to find another metallic drake scale on a vendor, but until then, I just can't afford more. Instead, I'll give whatever cash I have to whoever makes the aug.

What else can I do?

[Ixiola]

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here.

Consider how much time and money (and potentially AA experience) these people have spent to get their skill high enough that someone would like to use their services. Normally they can get some money back by making and selling their wares in the bazaar. By doing a combine for you, they are essentially removing a potential customer and getting very little profit.

I'm not trying to say whether his price of 20K was reasonable or unreasonable. But people who say, "it's simply a combine click so what's the difference" fail to recognize and reward the significant investment the other person has made in his skill.

To be honest, I'd be far more interested in someone offering me extra (hard to get) components in return for a combine than cash.

However, generally I never do this at all except for guildies/friends. And when I do it for friends, I do it for free. I make exceptions for tinkering combines though because gnomes aren't exactly a dime a dozen. Too many ogres want to use us to play football.

[Qaladar Bragollach]

Also consider that how does said person know you aren't going to turn around and sell your finished product in the bazaar thus not only depriving him of a potential customer but in fact cutting into his market directly?

I've been burned in this fashion before and now I try to avoid doing combines for people unless they are personal friends.

[Airl]

What else can I do?

Spend the hours, AAs, and plat required to raise your smithing skill, and chance of sucess on combine.

It is my understanding, both tailors and smiths can attempt the symbol combine, so you might be able to look for a tailor.

Short of that, you are unfortunately subject to pay whatever price a high-level tradeskiller requires. If you don't like the 20k price, then keep looking for someone else to do the combine.

[Dutchy]

I'd try going to the bazaar, look up every mule that is selling the grandmaster augments, leave them all a message/mail with your situation, and hope for a kind responce =)

[Ngreth Thergn]

Also think of the effort to get the pattern for the symbol. Many of them are time consuming and for some people rather difficult.

[KyrosKrane]

Speaking from practical experience, the chest slot aug patterns are the most frequently used (mostly because the breastplates are the best-selling armor item). Putting myself in the crafter's shoes, it would have to be a significant profit indeed to use up one of those precious patterns. Had it been any other slot, I'd probably be willing to negotiate. But the scarcity of patterns and consistent sales rate of chest slot augs leaves little room for negotiation, I fear.

[Neebat]

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here.

Then you agree that he IS in fact the devil.

Also consider that how does said person know you aren't going to turn around and sell your finished product in the bazaar thus not only depriving him of a potential customer but in fact cutting into his market directly?

I'll do anything in my power to demonstrate otherwise, including showing him the Cuirass I've got waiting for the aug. Can I give him the bp and have him insert it or would that make the whole shebang NO DROP? If I wanted cash from this, I would have sold the drake scales.

Spend the hours, AAs, and plat required to raise your smithing skill, and chance of sucess on combine.

Good idea and I might just do it. It sounds like vengence.

It is my understanding, both tailors and smiths can attempt the symbol combine, so you might be able to look for a tailor.

Ah, if I could afford this stuff, I'd do that, but I only have the metallic drake scale because I found it on a vendor. Can't afford to buy a glossy drake scale for a tailor to try.

I'd try going to the bazaar, look up every mule that is selling the grandmaster augments, leave them all a message/mail with your situation, and hope for a kind responce =)

Did that. Got one response, from a tailor. Doesn't help.

Also think of the effort to get the pattern for the symbol. Many of them are time consuming and for some people rather difficult.

Absolutely sound arguement and he can charge what he wants for his time. I guess I'd give it more weight if we knew just how many copies of that chest pattern he can get after running the quest once through.

[Vidyne]

#1 reason period.

Fear of you selling the result of their work for a profit they wont get.

You buy a Discordiant Scoriae for 60k, you get me to smith it for 5k, you sell the inlay for 75k, where I am trying to sell them for 100k. You return on other alts until I figure out you are all the same person and stop doing combines for you.

Buying and making these I break about even on failures selling for 100k lets say, maybe making some profit.. maybe not /shrug, depending on my skill.

(I is a stereotype here.. I dont actually sell Black Gold Inlays, though I wish I had the money to get in that market).

Basically you are getting free bonus money on an item you spent if I succeed on the combine for 5k.

Youre paying 5k for 15k or 40k or whatever you want to charge over the price of the Discordiant Scoriae.

iirc, Inlays still hover between 125k-200k, and Scoriaes are 60-80k.
If you found enough willing smiths, you could make lots of money for zero work... this is why your tradeskill community(the good most of it anyway) charges you 20k for these combines. This should be the main reason, pretty much.

Yes, your looking to wear it, thats honest, and nice....
Too many are looking to make turn around profits however, so im sorry... but you have to pay for their greediness.

*Sorry to compare scoraies and scales, inlays and symbols, but GM/M stuff flucuating too much atm to give pricing examples*

if you can convice a smith to do it, then thats great. Im not trying to be a downer, I just doubt that anyone will, given most tradeskillers are ripped off quite often.

and /shrug.. id probably do it for 5k cause im dumb and all anyway.

[Nefertiti Nazguul]

Too many ogres want to use us to play football.

Myself haveing a 52 Ogre Warrior have never ever kicked a gnome like a football!!!! I have unfortuantly sat on one or two though. <sorry> They are tastey with toast and grape jelly!

[Nefertiti Nazguul]

I would not charge for combines also. It would be nice to be offered the money and not assume I would do it for free although. I may be needing the cash at that particular moment.

[KyrosKrane]

Absolutely sound arguement and he can charge what he wants for his time. I guess I'd give it more weight if we knew just how many copies of that chest pattern he can get after running the quest once through.

You get 20 patterns per use of the book, and indications are that you can use the book ten times before it gets worn out and poofs. 200 patterns may sound like a lot, but on average, I'm getting around a 50% success rate. This means I'll get 100 augs total, more or less. In that time, though, I will have destroyed hundreds of patterns for other slots, simply because the augs for those slots don't sell so well. Given that the quest could take a month to complete (which is how long my quest took), I don't look forward to running it again.

[Angelsyn]

Would I do the combine (Assuming I was high enough level and had done the quest) for free?

For an Aug? Probably not. You see, anyone (with the skill & book) can make any Aug for any religion (and any class)... thus, the Aug Smithing is inherantly more valuable to a Guild as a whole. You don't need to do the GM quest to make the armour... just need the basic quest and decent skill.

So, once I reach the point where I can make GM Augs, friends & Guildmates are going to have first claim. If I put myself in a situation where I might run low (or out) of a certain Aug pattern due to outside Smithing combines, then I'm doing a dis-service to myself, my friends & my Guildmates.

[GigantuousOfPovar]

Hmm...

Okay..first off the quest for the grandmaster symbol patterns is rediculous and thats being kind. On Povar there are only maybe 5 people on the entire server that have finished this quest from start to finish..myself being one of them. At first when this quest was brought out there was supposed to not be any WEAR AND TEAR on these SYMBOL pattern books. But from what I am reading is that there has been wear and tear and you have to do this quest all over again after 10 combines on a book binding using one particular SYMBOL pattern book.

You don't need any of the quests themselves except for the easy one making your own races armor (Base DoN Cultural) which only requires only the ancestral quest book (a very easy quest).

At present I have used up GM 18 bp symbol patterns, 4 leggings patterns, 3 sleeves and still have left 20 of every other pattern in the backpack which will produce problems in near future.

1. I can save the leftover patterns (NO TRADE) in my bank vault on this character only so in short time period (I will have no room left in bank and a ton of symbol patterns left).

2. I can use up all of my symbol patterns first before making a new backpack of symbol patterns. (Not a smart idea from a business point of view)

3. I can destroy the other 5 stacks of various symbol patterns (this is the stupid idea) so I can make a fresh backpack of symbols just to make more chest symbol patterns.

So in essence when you post about what Artisans are charging please also realize that we spend over a month's worth of time getting to the end of Grandmaster's armor quest which was a pain in the butt to do and something unlikely that most of us will like to repeat again.

I charge 80k for a chest symbol on povar however that is prolly gonna change as of this week as the other 5 people selling the chest symbol patterns are going up to 100k per chest symbol as now we realize how badly EQ has screwed up on the quest which would require us to do the quest all over again (when hell freezes over).

Now onto your second part which is you are thinking you are being overcharged for a combine. I charge nothing to my fellow guildmates for combines but outside the guild I charge 20% (only on successes) of whatever existing value is of an item on server for the following reasons.

Believe it or not it took me several million plat and 3 years (real life) and several hundred game hours to get to 300 in 6 tradeskills and 286 in Fletching (LOL before it became easy). I cannot in all fairness not charge a fair premium for a combine (look it says only on successes) or I can literally killl the market for my peers in this same market not to mention shooting myself in the foot.

Lets look at the math on this.

I have a success ratio of 50% to 75% average on all my combines 300 trivial and above which means I may have to use up 2 symbol patterns to make that chest symbol for you.

I accept 5k from you for a chest symbol (only on success) and we make you one using 2 symbol patterns. I have then taken each of those patterns and assigned a value of 2500pp each to them so if I continue to do this 2500pp x 200 possible chest symbols (before having to do the same quest again) = 500,000pp

Lets see my peers are selling same chest symbols for 100k each. In essence I have single handedly killed off the entire market for chest symbols on my server at least for 200 chest symbols. More importantly I have also screwed up the entire market on any other GM symbol (any slot) as I might as well assign 2500pp combine charge to each of those too.

PS..hmm another reason I don't do the above is I can do 100 combines and make 500k total but the people could turn around and sell those same combines for 100k each lets see. I make 500,000pp and everyone else made 10,000,000pp off my combines.

Now lets look at it our way. We charge you 20k (20%) for a combine x 100 = 2,000,000pp now. Personally I think we should charge at least 40% for a successful combine so this way if you pay us 40k and sell it for 100k we at least make 40% and you make 60%. This does not hurt the market then.

Personally I think Eq was dead wrong in making the symbol pattern books to fade away as most of us won't repeat the Master or the Grandmaster part of quest again and this will be yet another dead end quest put in the game but this time will concern tradeskills.

One important lesson I have learned in tradekills is that you don't screw over the market for greed at anytime. We Artisans trade materials with each other as well as push business to each other.

The way I handle most of my GM symbols is have the person bring me 3 scales or hides/purescale ore and I will guarantee them a symbol. If I have leftover materials after the successful combine then I will keep that as my fee.

Another way is this: We tradeskillers love tradeskilling but we HATE FARMING for the materials. We buy materials all the time. IE..I use 150 bd's a week for just one particular recipie in smithing. That translates into 50k-60k a week I put out just for BD's. Or I or another tradeskiller may need 200 othmir furs paying 400pp each (just ask). We always need something. We will take trades in materials for combines.

Sorry this was soooooo long but its important for people to see why we charge like we do on combines.

[Neebat]

Just an update,

I did an ooc last night for a smith to do the combine and got TWO offers within a minute or two. This is a dramatic change and my best guess is a lot of people have been pushing hard to get to 300 before the patch, so we now have more competition in the market.

The combine succeeded. I'm now wearing my master's lightring cuirass with grandmaster's chest symbol of storms and volcanic aug from DoN. I'm pre-elemental and to me, the stats on this thing are insane. I'm giddy. I happilly paid the smith 10k for his time and effort, since that's what I had at the time.