Big picture question

[Cigarskunk]

OK, Den Mom put together this site because she wanted to share her love of tradeskills with everyone else by giving everyone a useful and helpful place with all of the info they needed and forums to ask any questions they needed that weren't covered in the site.

However, one of the things that frequently comes up is the debate of whether we are reasponsible for looking after those who will follow in our footsteps or if we should simply act in our own best interests now.

So, are there too many folks doing tradeskills out there, has Den Mom succeeded in her mission, should we now start doing things to actively discourage folks from even trying to follow in our footsteps because we've now reached the correct number of tradeskillers, should we start or maintain monopolies so that no-one can afford to follow the same routes we took?

What should we do, where are we going and how should we get there?

[Pootle]

As most of my guild and a number of people on my server know.... I am onlt too happy to give advice on tradeskills to any who ask, unless i am on a raid or tricky camp etc.

As for trying to discorage new tradeskillser to keep a monopoly... hmm, well its only a game, I do not support that idea. Saying that being a GM tailor does give one a bit of origionality in a world of halfling druids.

I will however give a realistic view of the time and money it takes to be a tradeskiller. Most people seem to think that a few weeks clicking is gonna allow them to craft 30k items and make them uber rich.

[Quinner Sparrowhawk]

Keep up with the advice

There may be too much competition in the eyes of some GM's but I doubt there will ever be "too" many tradeskillers.

1. Most players lack the patience to see it all the way through (What? I have to master brewing and tailoring to be a smith?)

2. Some of those who tradeskill do so with the idea of making the uber armor for themselves and their guild with no intention of ever selling anything in the bazaar. (What do you mean, leave the computer on while I'm not home?)

3. EQ enrollment will drop when Star Wars Galaxies goes live taking out some of the old established GM's and potential new ones.

4. The more players out there showing an interest in Tradeskills, the more VI will do with it. New quests and recipes will continue to be added which keep everything interesting.

5. I'd be completely lost and frustrated without the advice of this site and would give up on tradeskilling entirely.

So I want to say thanks for all those who do contribute and don't try to hold on to their monopolies.

[Cantatus]

The Problem:

Imagine how tradeskills would be if this were real life. Every shirt, car, computer, etc. you ever bought would near wear out, break down or become obsolete. Sure, you might get a better computer, but your old one will still be as good as it was the day you removed it from the box and perfect for selling.

Over time, companies (or the tradeskillers) would find less and less people to sell to. Why would I want to buy a new car when I already have one and it runs perfectly?

Of course, the added problem with tradeskills is that you must gain skill in order to make new items. You have to make a certain amount of items, sometimes thousands before you're good enough to make something else.

I'll admit the system is flawed. The way it works, all tradeskillers must flood the market with a few certain items before being able to move one. This is why a lot of tradeskills aren't profitable until you grandmaster them. If I have to make a ton of acrylia armor to be able ot make cultural, what are the chances that someone is going to be able to make a decent profit off the armor everyone is mass producing? This, of course, is coupled with the fact that barely any item that enters the game exits it.

Suggestions for Solutions:

I suppose it's really too late to have them implement any huge, sweeping changes to how tradeskills work, but they have done a lot of surprising stuff lately.

- First off, they should make specific items to skill up on. You wouldn't exactly send a surgeon off to do surgery unless they practiced doing smaller stuff first. These items would be sellable to venders, but otherwise have no stats. This would make it so items entered the game in a more leisurely fashion instead of being flooded.

- Another suggestion is that certain items shouldn't be makable once you reach a high enough skill (excluding brewing and baking). Yes, I know this really doesn't sound like it makes too much sense, but in a market where items never rot, it's sort of a necessary precaution. If Verant were to add new smithed armor that trivialed at 175, someone with 250 skill could flood the market and make it unprofitable for anyone with the more appropriate skill. This would not only make tradeskills more profitable at lower skill levels, but also help slow down the race to 250.

- Something else I suggested quite a while back was to implement a series of quests in which tradeskill items are required for completion. The reason the solstice earring quest items did so well is because the items remained in game for a very short time thus they had to keep being produced. This would give people an alternate method of "disposing" of their old armor, which would keep it all from remaining in the game. It would also provide a new market for the items.

The rewards for the quest would either be charged items or no drop ones. This would prevent new quested items from flooding the market killing the idea to begin with.

For example, a new series of NPCs are added to the game. They are all extremely skilled at their trade and can take old items and make them into something new or even provide magical properties to once mundane items. So you bring one of the NPCs a Koada`Dal Cloak, 2 Bracers and Greater Aura of Heat potion and recieve a Koada`Dal Shield (back/secondary item) - 32ac 25sta 25svF 10wis. Or, when you give one of the artisans any Koada`Dal items, you are rewarded with an Artisan's Talisman which has various effects (3 chrgs teleport to Bazaar, 5 chrgs Rune III, etc.). The more difficult/expensive the item, the better the effects on the Talisman's/

In Summary:

My belief is that Verant needs to take a more active role with tradeskills. They already do a lot, but tradeskills are something that need a lot of upkeep to ensure they don't become obsolete.

There really is no way to discourage tradeskillers from being tradeskillers. A lot of us weren't inspired by these boards to do them. Is this a problem? No, this would be like saying there are too many Warriors or Enchanters in the game.

I have to say though if it was not for this site and message board and Niami's continuing dedication to maintaining it, I don't think tradeskills would be anywhere close to where they are today. By having a defined community, it is hard for Sony/Verant to ignore us.

[Lling]

Re: Big picture question

...one of the things that frequently comes up is the debate of whether we are reasponsible for looking after those who will follow in our footsteps or if we should simply act in our own best interests now.

I have not been one to want a monopoly. I (and consequently my friends) have benefitted from the fact that I pretty much had one for a very long time. 7 months of being the only human 250 smith had it's benefits - but it also had it drawbacks in terms of demands on my time.

Now - if I want a break from smithing - I see armor cropping up here and there, mostly on the same mule, and they made a real effort to match my prices. Because of this, I feel very comfortable saying "Look for so-and-so" if I don't feel up to smithing for a few days.

I know people who have gone out of their way to flood the market with dirt cheap items and - in the words of another tradeskiller - "ruin every market they touch". That is one way that people choose to play. It is not my way, but it is their choice.

I do have an issue with what my responsibility should be on an ongoing basis.

My issue might sound selfish - I am not out to keep people from learning - but *I don't give lessons*. I skilled up before all the trivials were lowered. As rude as this sounds, I don't keep track of how to skill up NOW - because I don't have to. My path is no longer an option. That is unfortunate, but that is the case, and that is not my fault. It is not my respobsibility to keep track of how to do it now.

I still get tells from guildmates and strangers alike asking "what should I make next?" I say "www.eqtraders.com - that's how I learned". But some people want to be spoon fed rather than read. No offense, I read - and I am not going to read for someone else - they can read it themselves.

I did not skill up to be someone's reference material. I am sure they are grumbling about "mean Lling who doesn't want competition". I don't have "competiton" - I have friends who share tradeskills. I also have better things to do than hold someone's hand when they can just come here and READ.

[Daikoku Ashikaga]

Nothing one player can do can stop another player from silling up eventually.

Something trades like brewing can be done all vendor bought. some like smithing can be interfered with, but not stopped.

If you want to you can succeed, in this game it might mean "GASP" leveling and building your character until they have the power to aquire what you need to advance your trade, instead of railing against people that can out produce you selling atr a price that is fair in their minds.

Dai

[Hanna]

Re: Big picture question

So, are there too many folks doing tradeskills out there, has Den Mom succeeded in her mission, should we now start doing things to actively discourage folks from even trying to follow in our footsteps because we've now reached the correct number of tradeskillers, should we start or maintain monopolies so that no-one can afford to follow the same routes we took?

What should we do, where are we going and how should we get there?

I would not personally discourage anyone from doing tradeskills. Unlike some (and more power to you!) I do not do tradeskills for a profit. Yes, I have occassionally made one, but very rarely. I do them because for me, they are a fun and relaxing part of the game. While they have on occassion caused frustration, for the most part they have given me a chance to meet new people, help others along the way, find out who my true friends have been. (There aren't many people who will drag you kicking and screaming to the geonid caves in WL so you can finish your 8th shawl, because they feel like you deserve it), and work out some real life issues while mindlessly clicking 'combine' for hours on end (I do the same thing with jigsaw puzzles).

And as for maintaining monopolies so others cannot afford the same type of skillup path: think about the May 8th changes. Some of us could not afford to skill up smithing before the changes came, though we were aware they were coming. Was I discouraged? Yes! But did that prevent me from trying to find another path and continuing to work on smithing when I have the time and the platinum? No! (currently 195 and rising). If people wish to do tradeskills, why actively discourage them?

I have GMd brewing; have baking, fletching, pottery, jewelcraft at 200; smithing as I said is 195; and tailoring is sitting at 186. So while my reasons for tradeskilling may be different than yours, does that make them any less valid? And what is the 'correct number of tradeskillers'?

What should we do, where are we going and how should we get there?

The only person who can answer that is the individual who pays a monthly fee to play the game, and each person can only answer it for themselves.

[Kcalehc]

What should we do?
Erm, nothing?

Or how about not trying to be clever and philosophical about something (which at the most basic level is just a computer game) and just see what happens...

Life is what you are making it today, not what you are planning it to be tomorrow.

[Angelsyn]

The Problem:
Over time, companies (or the tradeskillers) would find less and less people to sell to. Why would I want to buy a new car when I already have one and it runs perfectly?

Of course, the added problem with tradeskills is that you must gain skill in order to make new items. You have to make a certain amount of items, sometimes thousands before you're good enough to make something else.

I'll admit the system is flawed. The way it works, all tradeskillers must flood the market with a few certain items before being able to move on. This is why a lot of tradeskills aren't profitable until you grandmaster them. If I have to make a ton of acrylia armor to be able ot make cultural, what are the chances that someone is going to be able to make a decent profit off the armor everyone is mass producing? This, of course, is coupled with the fact that barely any item that enters the game exits it.

I'd like to note that, well, there are always new people, new characters & new customers... Maybe not as many as before, but they're out there.

[Kirstin Thornhill]

If/when a new race/class enters the game, hundreds of established players with be running to the bazaar to equip their new twink. This is about the only time new characters enter the game now.

I was looking right after Christmas, when I would have expected a large influx of players to enter. I was surprised not to see them...