As predicted, DoN GM silk is junk

[Yakk]

Grandmaster's Starglow Robes

MAGIC ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 30
STR: +4 STA: +5 CHA: +6 INT: +7 HP: +40 MANA: +40 Endurance: +40
SV FIRE: +6 SV COLD: +6 SV MAGIC: +6
Recommended level of 69. Required level of 65
WT: 2.5 Size: LARGE
Class: WIZ MAG ENC
Race: HIE
Slot 1, type 7:empty
Slot 2, type 11:empty
Slot 3, type 12:empty

The main advantage of GM plate over M plate was the 50 AC you got.

Silk gains 15 AC.

Why SOE thought that a 50 AC plate upgrade is worth the same as a 15 AC silk upgrade, I'll never know.

[Draggar]

Slot 1, type 7:empty
Slot 2, type 11:empty
Slot 3, type 12:empty

That's why. TSable aug slots.

[Secone]

yes i think we ALL know that its TS aug able but have a look:

Plate:
Masters Cuirass = 51AC
Grandmasters Cuirass = 99AC

Thats a huge jump in AC ... with silk its only a 15AC difference

[Sylphan]

It's not just cultural that's like this. There's a trend in all modern armor sets to have the AC ratio be

3:5:8:10

in cloth:leather:chainlate.

and now for my rant...

For me, 15 AC/hp/mana/end and 2 stats/saves is not much incentive. The difference between the M and GM augments is significant though.

This is a far cry from how it used to be in, say, Velious, when there were a lot of all/all items so casters could get reasonably good AC. There are several problems with this. First, the mitigation formula is different for casters than for leather/chain/plate classes, they inherently get less benefit from AC on gear to begin with. Second, their dodge, defense, and other combat skills are capped much lower so again they get less effective benefit from AC gear. Third, mitigation compares mob ATK values to character AC in a relatively narrow range *1. Fourth, as players upgrade from old armor to newer armor, most casters are actually seeing their AC go down not up.

Put all that together and the 3:10 ratio (or in this case 15:50) is even worse than it looks. For most casters the extra 15 AC is unnoticable and worthless, except possibly when farming greens with a damage shield. It would have been better to measure AC as additive rather than multiplicative, since that's the way the combat code works. So instead of saying 'cloth should always be one third the AC of plate' they could have said 'cloth should always be 25 AC less than plate'.

*1 against level 70 mobs a character with AC 800 (that's considered a low number at level 70, ask any tank) gets hit exactly the same as a character with AC 100. His ATK value is so far above 800 that he's hitting for full almost every hit anyway. Against a level 50 mob there's a huge difference between AC 800 and AC 100, but against a level 70 mob there isn't.

[Blayze Meduenin]

you say the gm silk is 15 ac more?

that means (since the gm is 30ac) it goes from 15-30

so we get :

plate 51-99 (+94%)
silk 15-30 (+100%)

the gain is the same (roughly it doubles) just the base is much lower to begin with.

If the silk had +50ac as well wed rapidly get to the situation where silk armor had almost the same ac as plate, and more than leather for instance

[Sylphan]

With the way the combat system works it would actually make sense if silk AC (and leather and chain too) was always just a few points behind plate, rather than a fraction of plate AC.

The difference between 20 AC plate and 6 AC cloth is not accurately described as '70%'. It's more accurately described as '14'. So when plate goes up to 99, cloth should go up to somewhere around 85. Alas, that's not the way it's being done these days.

Nevertheless, this rant isn't all about AC. We only pointed to AC as an important stat on the platemail. The tiny difference in stats/saves/effects is also significant. At level 60 INT is capped at what, 255? At level 70 with AAs it can go to 415. +3 int on the level 70 version of the robe just doesn't keep pace. And who ever cared about +2 cold resist?

Bottom line, GM platemail will be very much coveted and very expensive... and GM silk won't.

[KyrosKrane]

Int is a very different story; stats, saves, hp, mana, and endurance are supposed to come from the Type 11 augment. AC, however, comes exclusively from the base armor. If you want to compare int, you have to compare each level of armor with its matching augment. Also note that you could have a Grandmaster aug in a Journeyman's armor piece if you so wished.

[Darknyss]

Aye,

Grandmaster's Starglow Robes
MAGIC ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 30
STR: +4 STA: +5 CHA: +6 INT: +7 HP: +40 MANA: +40 Endurance: +40
SV FIRE: +6 SV COLD: +6 SV MAGIC: +6
Recommended level of 69.
Required level of 65
WT: 2.5 Size: LARGE
Class: WIZ MAG ENC
Race: HIE
Slot 1, type 7:empty
Slot 2, type 11:empty
Slot 3, type 12:empty

Grandmaster's Chest Symbol Of Growth
ATTUNEABLE AUGMENTATION
Augmentation Type: 11
Slot: CHEST
STR: +13 STA: +13 WIS: +10 INT: +10 AGI: +11 HP: +105
MANA: +105 Endurance: +105
SV FIRE: +7 SV DISEASE: +7 SV COLD: +7 SV MAGIC: +3
SV POISON: +7
Mana regeneration: +2
Damage Shield: +2
Recommended level of 69
Required level of 65
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Deity: Tunare
(for Tunare worshippers... as an example, other deities would have different, yet mostly similar stats.)

Makes:
Grandmaster's Starglow Robes (Augmented)
MAGIC ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 30
STR: +17 STA: +18 CHA: +6 WIS: +10 INT: +17 AGI: +11 HP: +145 MANA: +145 Endurance: +145
SV FIRE: +13 SV COLD: +13 SV MAGIC: +9 SV POISON: +7 SV DISEASE: +7
Mana regeneration: +2
Damage Shield: +2
Recommended level of 69.
Required level of 65
WT: 2.5 Size: LARGE
Class: WIZ MAG ENC
Race: HIE
Slot 1, type 7:empty
Slot 2, type 11: Grandmaster's Chest Symbol Of Growth
Slot 3, type 12:empty

and still 2 more aug slots to go... as a caster, AC is nice... but certainly not the first thing I look at when it comes to gearing up my Enchanter... and I'd drop the ID4 focus on my Fabled Robe of the Ishva for this robe any day.

[Wyvernwill]

Well, here's Plate vs Silk in the last two big Tailoring/Smithing expansions (Planes of Power and Omens of War)

Robe Of Immaculate Air (Planes of Power)
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: CHEST
AC: 25
STR: +5 DEX: +12 INT: +10 AGI: +12 HP: +90 MANA: +90
SV MAGIC: +25
Recommended level of 63
Required level of 46
WT: 2.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: HUM ERU HIE DEF GNM IKS FRG
Slot type 7:empty

Robe Of Strife (omens)
MAGIC ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 28
STR: +13 DEX: +12 CHA: +8 INT: +15 HP: +125 MANA: +135
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV MAGIC: +15
Recommended level of 65
WT: 2.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: ALL
Slot type 7:empty

Grandmaster's Starglow Robes (Augmented)
MAGIC ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 30
STR: +17 STA: +18 CHA: +6 WIS: +10 INT: +17 AGI: +11 HP: +145 MANA: +145 Endurance: +145
SV FIRE: +13 SV COLD: +13 SV MAGIC: +9 SV POISON: +7 SV DISEASE: +7
Mana regeneration: +2
Damage Shield: +2
Recommended level of 69.
Required level of 65
WT: 2.5 Size: LARGE
Class: WIZ MAG ENC
Race: HIE
Slot 1, type 7:empty
Slot 2, type 11: Grandmaster's Chest Symbol Of Growth
Slot 3, type 12:empty

Overall, things on the silk haven't changed too greatly. The added hps are nice too.

Livestone Plate Breastplate (PoP)
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: CHEST
AC: 65
STR: +5 DEX: +12 WIS: +10 INT: +10 AGI: +12 HP: +90
MANA: +90 Endurance: +90
SV MAGIC: +25
Recommended level of 63
Required level of 46
WT: 8.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: ALL
Slot type 7:empty

Charged Magnetic Breastplate (omens)
MAGIC ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 70
STR: +15 DEX: +8 STA: +8 WIS: +15 INT: +15 HP: +135
MANA: +125 Endurance: +125
SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Recommended level of 65
WT: 4.3 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: ALL
Slot type 7:empty

Grandmaster's Stormguard Cuirass (BP)
Slot Chest
AC:99
STR: +20 STA: +18 WIS: +13 INT: +14 AGI: +17 HP: +145 MANA: +145 End: +145
6 to COLD, FIRE, DIS, 12 to MAGIC and POISON
Slot 1, type7:empty
Slot 2, type11:Grandmaster's Chest Symbol of Below
Slot 3, type12:empty
Mana Regen +2
Damage Shield +2

Overall, there hasn't been too much of a change in power rating for the Breastplates either. This Bp is still at best, only marginally better than the Charged which was only marginally better than Livestone Plate. The only real gain for plate was the Ac which went up 29.

I do agree that the Silk could have used a bit of a boost over it's predacessors maybe to 35/39 Ac, but anything more would have not really made much sense at all. As is, I see the silk being as in demand as any other of the tradeskilled GM stuff. Int casters are not meant to take melee damage, if you are, you are obviously doing something wrong and not as intended. Int casters shouldn't be able to stand up in melee as well as plate classes, hence lower ac, mitigation and defensive/offensive skills for higher casting abilities and skills.

[Yakk]

If you where a tank, and had the option of a GM plate or a M plate, you'd be a complete idiot to even think about the M plate.

If you are a caster, and had an option between the GM silk or the M silk, the difference is nearly ignoreable.

From what I can tell, GM silk armor is significantly harder than M silk armor.

The smart money is on making M silk armor and putting GM augments in it. Lose 6 total resists and 15 hp/mana and 15 AC.

The smart plate money is making GM plate armor and putting GM augments in it.

That is why GM silk armor is crap. Because it is only a tiny bit better than M silk armor. Meanwhile, GM plate is a whole bunch better than M plate.

The amount of time it took to make it indicates either (A) the components are hard to get it, or (B) people predicted it would be crap and didn't bother making it.

The difference in non-main slots is even larger: but, as many people have noted, the crafted DoN stuff is mainly good in chest and legs.

[Darknyss]

If you where a tank, and had the option of a GM plate or a M plate, you'd be a complete idiot to even think about the M plate.

If you are a caster, and had an option between the GM silk or the M silk, the difference is nearly ignoreable.

So if you had the choice, you'd choose M silk instead?

From what I can tell, GM silk armor is significantly harder than M silk armor.

gratz Sherlock, and the GM plate is significantly harder than the M plate... who'd of thunk it?

The smart money is on making M silk armor and putting GM augments in it. Lose 6 total resists and 15 hp/mana and 15 AC.

The smart plate money is making GM plate armor and putting GM augments in it.

Ok, comparing apples and oranges...

upgrade from M->GM(for one example plate)
48 AC (upgrade of ~52%) 3str, 2str/wis/int, 1agi, 15hp/mana/end, 6sv total

upgrade from M->GM(for one example silk)
14 AC (upgrade of ~53%) 2str/sta/cha, 3int, 15hp/mana/end, 6sv total

so the biggest pure difference is the AC (which is negligible percentagewise). As a caster, this should not be the biggest issue when choosing a robe. Add a GM aug to ANY of the armors and you're looking at a nice item.

The amount of time it took to make it indicates either (A) the components are hard to get it, or (B) people predicted it would be crap and didn't bother making it.

Or perhaps (C), tailoring is one of the most difficult tradeskills and considering there never was there a vendor-sold option to obtain skill, and never had the popularity that smithing achieved with both armors AND weaponry... maybe there's just not as many nutty tailorers as there are nutty smithers.

Just sounds like whining about numbers to me... would I like to see higher AC on the robes to make it comparable AC-wise to other obtainable/droppable items... yes. Would it significantly change the desirability or need for this item? IMHO, the loss of AC would be marginal compared to the hp/mana gains this robe might bring. And for the augs, a caster is going to use the +mana regen a lot more than the warrior...

[Wyvernwill]

I'll agree to that, my necro would kill for 2 Mana Regen/2 Regen over 1/1.

All of the GM components are harder to get. Costs are affected purely by how much people sell the droppable components by. So, yeah, Masters will be a lot cheaper than GM, but GM will remain the better product none the less.

[Boleslav]

A previous poster harkened back to the days of Velious when there was ALL/ALL gear a plenty that let many classes get good AC. This availability of high AC gear by anyone led fairly directly to things like the Monk mitigation nerf. AC is a big factor in how well a character stands up to melee, and how well that character can tank. High end monks were out tanking knights and even warriors on occasion. The artificially high AC obtainable through ALL/ALL equipment was damaging class balance significantly.

Caster items are going to have lower amounts of AC than melee items, and most melee items will have less AC than plate tank items or Warrior items. There has to be some way to keep relative tanking balance among characters of different classes with roughly the same level of gear.

A well geared caster has a lot of HP nowadays, enough to stand up to getting hit a couple times by most non raid mobs. Therefore they cannot mitigate as well as melee classes, and keeping AC lower is a way to accomplish this.

Boleslav Forgehammer
Paladin of Brell in his 67th Campaign
E'ci – Sacred Destiny