Salvage and Scamming

[gnormy]

At this time Salvage still doesnt report a group message that materials were recovered. This allows a scammer doing the combine to keep any salvaged materials for themselves since the group only sees a failure message and nothing about salvaged materials. This really needs to be addressed by SOE - until then, theres no real protection other than knowing who is doing your combines.

[Genella]

*shrug*, they earned the AAs to get it, it's their personal choice whether to tell people or not.

If you spend the time, platinum and effort to get the TS to that level and get the AAs then you wouldn't have to rely on these "scammers". Until then I don't see why people are so miffed about it.

[Akishka]

If somebody is advertising salvage, and you pay them extra for their time and effort, there should be something there keeping the transaction honest. Again, it is the person's right to decide if their salavage will be paid for with an upfront donation or with the spoils of their labor. But this really should be something everybody involved knows about.

[Liwsa]

If you are paying for a combine, the items for the combine are yours(the person paying for the combine) NOT property of the person you are paying to do the combine for you. IF something is salavged, just like as if the combine was successful, the item belongs to the person who supplied it for the combine.

If a person gives you an item needed for the combine that is returned on a success like a hammer or needle don't you return it to them? Same should hold true for a salvaged item.

[Silverfish]

Caveat Emptor

In realistic terms, the lack of feedback on salvage is just the same as any other item of trust. If you're willing to trust someone's ability level, which you can't really verify, then you're already familiar with the idea. Sure, it'd be nice to know, but the way I see it, there's a certain level of trust involved anyway, so you just have to figure it into the equation. Don't want to trust someone to give you back salvaged items? Then don't pay extra for the salvage ability (the presence of which you can't verify anyway) or only ask people you trust to do combines. Sure, it's honest to give back salvage, but trust is trust. If it's not there, then don't do it. In EQ as in real life, it's not realistic to assume that there's a guarantee for everything.

Silverfish

[Silound]

I see people getting real bent out of shape over this, but they seem to forget that pre-OOW, ALL fails were a COMPLETE loss.

Judging this, I hardly see the uprising over salvage farmers, you just have to be as careful as you were picking a GM skiller before. Find someone you trust who has the skills or get them yourself, but it's hardly worth complaining over if you lose some supplies. Granted, it's a dishonest thing for people to do, and I don't approve of it any more than the next person who just blew 100k for the parts for an Aid Grimel tunic to have it fail, but I hardly see how you can claim it's any more unfair to you than before. 100% loss is still 100% loss.

[Mukkul]

When abilities change, the requirements for fairness also change.

But then, they don't seem interested in making complete messages for all tradeskill results. I mean, if you go back through your own log file you can see what other people in your group have made with tradeskills, but you can't even see what you yourself have made. Tradeskill messages are lacking all around.

[gnormy]

Community awareness is needed until SOE addresses it. Thus the reason for the post. While ignorance may be bliss - its also a sad way to go thru life.

[Lothay]

This is more of a PSR thread. *punt*

[Nolrog]

I had passed this on a while ago. I had expected them to add a message by now. I bumped my thread and asked for an update. Will post when I hear back.

[Eggborn]

Just to play devil's advocate here:

If someone hands you something and you both hit the button to trade in the window, isn't that supposed to theoretically be the end of it in EQ rules?

If you hit trade it's theirs technically.
If they salvage it, I see no EQ rules that you are obligated to return the item to the player who gave it to you.

I wouldn't do business this way, but there's not a lot anyone can do to enforce it, just the players who see it's been salvaged. If they are able to see it in the future, yes, players can enforce it by reputation. Does Sony care? hum

[Maevenniia]

Just to play devil's advocate here:

If someone hands you something and you both hit the button to trade in the window, isn't that supposed to theoretically be the end of it in EQ rules?

If you hit trade it's theirs technically.
If they salvage it, I see no EQ rules that you are obligated to return the item to the player who gave it to you.

I wouldn't do business this way, but there's not a lot anyone can do to enforce it, just the players who see it's been salvaged. If they are able to see it in the future, yes, players can enforce it by reputation. Does Sony care? hum

If a tradeskiller is specifically advertising that he/she has the Salvage AA in their /auction message, then they have NO right to keep anything salvaged, since they are using that to entice people to choose them over another for combines. (ie: "choose me because there's a chance that even if the combine fails you won't lose all those expensive/rare components")

But you are correct in that there's not much you can do, since you hit the trade button and there's no way to force anyone to give things back. (I don't recall if it's EQ2 or WoW's tradeskill system where in doing a combine for others the items never actually enter your inventory, it's all done in a window, so when you do the combine the customer gets the result....that would be great in this context)

If a tradeskiller auctions that they will do combines for a 'bargain basement' combine fee + the right to keep anything salvaged, and the customer agrees, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

If someone hands you something and you both hit the button to trade in the window, isn't that supposed to theoretically be the end of it in EQ rules?

If you hit trade it's theirs technically.
If they salvage it, I see no EQ rules that you are obligated to return the item to the player who gave it to you.

If I recall correctly, if you have a well-documented (via /report s) scam, then it does violate the rules and GMs can do something about it.

A trade is a trade, but I believe if there is a documented deal associated with that trade that is blatantly avoided after the trade, it can be officially dealt with. I think this is a change in policy from originally, when a trade was a trade, no ifs, ands, or buts about it (at least that was my understanding of the rules for a long while).

Thats the rule that some illegitimate casino runners have gotten in trouble for, I believe.

You'd have to make sure that your salvage issues would classify as a "scam" rather than just a bad or unclear deal, though.

[KyrosKrane]

If a tradeskiller auctions that they will do combines for a 'bargain basement' combine fee + the right to keep anything salvaged, and the customer agrees, there's nothing wrong with that.

OK, my turn to play devil's advocate.

Doesn't this create a conflict of interest for the tradeskiller? He or she would actually gain MORE if a combine failed than if it succeeded.

Not that it matters, mind you. The chance of success is essentially the same either way, barring something goofy like not equipping a geerlok.

[KyrosKrane]

You'd have to make sure that your salvage issues would classify as a "scam" rather than just a bad or unclear deal, though.

See, here's where things get wonky, Dunthor.

Hypothetical situation. You have a very expensive combine. You find a tradeskiller with mastery 3 and salvage 3. You pay a fee and agree that any salvage will be returned. The tradeskiller combines and fails. He or she tells you that there was no salvage, and you go on your unhappy way.

Unbeknownst to you, the tradeskiller actually salvaged all the items in the combine. Since there is no message, you can't know whether he or she was lying to you.

This would clearly qualify as a scam, but it's almost impossible for you (the customer) to become aware of it. Hence, there's nothing to /report. In fact, there's nothing at all to indicate that you've been scammed. The only way to figure it out is if the scamming tradeskiller blabs to someone about how they gypped you.

This is the current core of the gripe. Folks are saying that others grouped with a tradeskiller should see salvage messages.