Picnics and pricing

[Rewde]

I am sick and tired of how everybody is complaining about how easy it is to make picnics now, and how low the prices are becoming. I am going to give a nice breakdown here of the rough cost to make them, presuming that you are farming, foraging, and buying premade woven mandrake root, and jum-jum spiced beer.

broken down:

marmalade sandwich(216):
Frosting (3) 9c *6 = 4s 5c
bread 2s *18 = 3g 2s
--------
3g 6s 5c

jum jum salad(210):
fennel 2p1g*21 =44p 1g
jum jum 5s2c*21 = 1p 9s 2c
lettuce 2s6c*21 = 5g 4s 6c
veggies forager (free) non forager-figure your price from bazaar
------------------
45p 7g 3s 8c

royal mints(210):
eucalyptus leaf 4p2g*21 = 88p 2g
frosting 9c*21 = 1g 8s 9c
---------------
88p 3g 8s 9c

mature cheese(210):
bottle of milk (2) 5c*42 = 2g 1s
rennet 1g2s6c*21 = 2p 6g 4s 6c
------------------
2p 8g 5s 6c

jum jum spiced beer(200):
buy premade from vendor
1s5c *200 = 3p

picnic basket (210):
woven mandrake 3s2c*21 = 6g 7s 2c
steel boning (ore) 5g2s5c*21 = 11p 2s 5c
---------------
11p 6g 9s 7c

jum jum cake (3):
(dough) milk 5c*3 = 1s 5c
flour 1c*3 = 3c
jum jum stalk 5s2c*3 = 1g 5s 6c
(chocolate)
frosting (2) 9c*6 = 5s 4c
brownie parts (farm for free)
frosting 9c*3 = 2s 7c
----------------
2g 5s 2c

grand total (including room for failures in pre combines): 149p 2g 9s 7c

total per combine: 7g 4s 7c

each picnic : 1g 8s 8c

5gp per picnic =200pp – 150pp(cost to make = 50pp profit
1pp per picnic =400pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 250pp profit
2pp per picnic =800pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 650pp profit
3pp per picnic =1200pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 1050pp profit
4pp per picnic =1600pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 1450pp profit
5pp per picnic =2000pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 1850pp profit
6pp per picnic =2400pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 2250pp profit
7pp per picnic =2800pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 2650pp profit
8pp per picnic =3200pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 3050pp profit
9pp per picnic =3600pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 3450pp profit
10pp per picnic =4000pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 3850pp profit
11pp per picnic =4400pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 4250pp profit
12pp per picnic =4800pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 4650pp profit
13pp per picnic =5200pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 5050pp profit
14pp per picnic =5600pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 5450pp profit
15pp per picnic =6000pp - 150pp(cost to make) = 5850pp profit


So, you don't like how low the price can actually go before you stop making a profit? You don't like how easy it is for someone else to make them and become your competition? TOUGH!

This game was made for everbody who plays it to enjoy. Tradeskills were designed with the intent that everybody could do them. People who did not do them before are now doing them, and are enjoying the game, just the same as you and I. So what if they have an easier time getting to the point where they can do it. You also have the same capabilities as they do, and can do the same things. As the development team at SOE would say "It's working as intended".

I don't see any problems with this. It just means I have to hone another ability that is not something set in stone with a point value in the game, and that is my own ability to market something so that people will want to come and buy the product from me instead of my competition.

And, like a lot of people will tell you, if you are not getting enjoyment from doing it anymore, then don't do it. Pretty simple.

[Maevenniia]

Well, you are right, there is a lot of complaining going on, but to look at it from their perspective, even though the new UI simplifies things, MTPs are still complex, due to so many subcombines and different yields and such. So 5 gold per picnic or 50pp per stack profit may not be worth the time invested, for these individuals.

Personally, I think anything less than 5pp per picnic is too low, when you consider all factors

-value of the item (boosts to the stats + part of the Xanthe/Solstice earring quest)
-complexity to make (yes, even with the new UI)
-skill level required
-time investment (farming, etc)

As for the higher prices ….well,some people are willing to pay for convenience /shrug.

[eniamn]

do you have any idea how rare it is to find pre-woven mandrake on my server? i have found it 2 tiems now and rejoiced. do it for making everything yourself which is a bit more resonable most of the time.

i get your point. i wouldn't mind selling them for 10pp instead of 20pp. i'm trying not to go lower than that so i don't tank the market. if people see someone selling for 5pp the next time they'll complain to someone else selling at 6pp they are charging to much. i was charging 10pp and someone complained it wasn't 9 once. it does happen.

you also forget that lower skill people need a little more to sell to pay for skillups. baking is one of the few skills that pays its own way really well.

i much dislike the people in the bazaar selling picnic baskets for 20pp. i think they are just trying to confuse people like the banded molds for 80k so you think its ornate.

[Draggar]

Originally posted by eniamn
do you have any idea how rare it is to find pre-woven mandrake on my server? i have found it 2 tiems now and rejoiced. do it for making everything yourself which is a bit more resonable most of the time.

I have to agree. Mandrake is about 2.5PP each, so that's 5PP per woven, which yields 10 picnics.

That's 5 gold per combine, 1.25 gold per picnic (assuming 100% success).

Same with Jumjum beer, but luckily most of the ingredients for that are inexpensive, maybe 3-4 gold total, so you're looking at 3-4 silver per combine, which is about .75-1 silver per picnic.

1.88 gold + 1.25 gold + 1 silver (rounding up) = 3.23 gold each picnic .

3.23 gold (or .323pp) X 400 attempts = 129.2PP, double that (since it seems that you assumed 50% success rate, which is about what I get) is 258.4PP (or 6.46 gold per combine).

Now take into consideration TIME. The time it takes to port into PoK, gather the ingredients, which are in 2-3 locations, then port over to Rivervals, buy the ingredients, which are in 4-5 different locations, make the steel boning, make the woven mandrake, make the beer, make the cake and slices, make all the other subcombines.

Also, "free" veggies, in this magnitude, unless you've bene collecting them for a long time, do not exist, expect to pay 1-5PP each for them in the bazaar, which will add 1 to 5 gold per combine, which is .25 -1.255 gold per combine more (adding onto the total of another 80-400PP to the grand total (So now our total is up to 338.4-658.4PP for the 800 attempts (or 8.46gold - 1.646pp per picnic).

You can easily see how the costs can quickly add up with not having some of the subcombines or foraged items readily available. Yes, I've seen them, and I was beside myself with that, but it's a rare opprotunity.

I'd say for the stats, 5-10PP each is a fair deal, it's "free" stats, which don't take up any slots, and a stack of picnics will last you a VERY long time. The most I've ever charged was 15PP each, and that was only when everyone else was charging 25-75PP each for them (which IMOHO is a completel rip off like most items in my bazaar). Markey heated up, and I brought mine down from 5-10PP each. I sold my last 500 at 6PP each and do not intend on selling any more unless the market cools down a bit. Any that I make will be for myself and / or my guild.

[eqNichola]

The time it takes to port into PoK, gather the ingredients, which are in 2-3 locations, then port over to Rivervals,

One word: Shadowhaven (or is that two words? I guess it's a place name so it's only one)

[Rewde]

Ok, so you are not a forager, and you don't want to take the time to farm your own brownie parts. I have revised the recipies/math to take into consideration buying those things in the bazaar.

marmalade sandwich(216):
Frosting (3) 9c *9 = 8s 1c
fruit 5p*3 = 15p
bread 2s *18 = 3g 2s
--------
15p 4g 1c

picnic basket (210):
mandrake root (2) 2p1g*42 = 88p 2g
steel boning (ore) 5g2s5c*21 = 11p 2s 5c
---------------
99p 2g 2s 5c



jum jum spiced beer(200):
water flask 1s*22 = 2g 2s
spices 7c*22 = 1g 5s 4c
bottle 5c*22 = 1g 1s
jum-jum stalk 5s2c*22 = 1p 1g 4s 4c
barley 1s6c*22 = 3g 5s 2c
hops 1s6c*22 = 3g 5s 2c
------------------
2p 3g 3s 2c


jum jum salad(210):
fennel 2p1g*21 =44p 1g
jum jum 5s2c*21 = 1p 9s 2c
lettuce 2s6c*21 = 5g 4s 6c
veggies 5p*21 = 105p
------------------
150p 7g 3s 8c


jum jum cake (3):
(dough) milk 5c*3 = 1s 5c
flour 1c*3 = 3c
jum jum stalk 5s2c*3 = 1g 5s 6c
(chocolate)
frosting (2) 9c*6 = 5s 4c
brownie parts 35p*3 = 105p
frosting 9c*3 = 2s 7c
----------------
105p 2g 5s 2c


grand total (including room for failures): 464p 1g 9s 3c

total per combine : 2p 3g 2s 1c

each picnic: 5g 8s 1c


2pp per picnic =800pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 335pp profit
3pp per picnic =1200pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 735pp profit
4pp per picnic =1600pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 1135pp profit
5pp per picnic =2000pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 1535pp profit
6pp per picnic =2400pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 1935pp profit
7pp per picnic =2800pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 2335pp profit
8pp per picnic =3200pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 2735pp profit
9pp per picnic =3600pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 3135pp profit
10pp per picnic =4000pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 3535pp profit
11pp per picnic =4400pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 3935pp profit
12pp per picnic =4800pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 4335pp profit
13pp per picnic =5200pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 4735pp profit
14pp per picnic =5600pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 5135pp profit
15pp per picnic =6000pp - 465pp(cost to make) = 5535pp profit


Ok, you want to figure in your "time", it's going to take you all of an hour to make 200 attempts, between 2 zones, bazaar and SH.
Say your time is worth 500pp an hour, which is really not that bad. You sell them for 5p each, you are still making 1kpp profit.

you also forget that lower skill people need a little more to sell to pay for skillups. baking is one of the few skills that pays its own way really well.

It is a skill up route to begin with, which would be considered research and development. You are not supposed to be making money during this time, look at tailoring(acrylia studded masks selling for 10pp, which cost 125p-175p if you buy all the components in the bazaar). At a skill of about 230, they will start making a profit and recouping their losses.

Currently, the market on Povar is supporting between 9p-15p per picnic. I have personally sold mine as low as 6pp each, while I was skilling up.

Yes, it is a complex item involving many sub-combines(HMPs take 3 times as many subcombines for the same amount of total combine). It used to take me 2.5 hrs to make 200 combines originally, now, it takes about an hour or less. Time is not the factor in this that it once used to be, you can do twice the amount of combines in almost 1/3 of the time.

So, the next time you see someone selling them for 2pp each, buy them out and re-sell them for 5pp. They made the profit that they thought it was worth to them, you spent 800pp(400 picnics), you made 1200pp and the only time you spent was while your time while in trader mode.

[Draggar]

Originally posted by eqNichola
One word: Shadowhaven (or is that two words? I guess it's a place name so it's only one)

Is JumJum sold there? I thought it was only sold in Rivervale?

[Rewde]

Shadow Haven, two words.

Sold here:
Alorob Bolrodo at -334, 1627 (Inside The Lost Turnip)
jumjum stalk, water flask

Information located on the main site under supplies, by zone, by tradeskill.

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Draggar
Now take into consideration TIME. The time it takes to port into PoK, gather the ingredients, which are in 2-3 locations, then port over to Rivervals, buy the ingredients, which are in 4-5 different locations, make the steel boning, make the woven mandrake, make the beer, make the cake and slices, make all the other subcombines.

So does my 250 baker (a shaman) have an unfair competetive advantage since he can sow himself and gate?

Nice analysis Rewde. Hope the wife is doing well.

[Silverfish]

A Quick Note about Jumjum in Shadow Haven

Just a quick note. You can buy Jumjum stalks in the Lost Turnip, but you'll need to do a bit of faction work.

To get to the Lost Turnip, zone into Shadow Haven from the Nexus. When you arrive, you're on a cross-shaped walk in a pool. Turn south, and travel down the tunnel you see, passing under the walkway. A short way down that tunnel, you'll see the door on the right side. There's even an oven in case the one by the half-elven baking merchant is occupied.

To get your faction up to buy, do the "register for trading" quest given by Trade Commisioner Henry. With a bit of luck, a first level character can make the trip through Echo Caverns (just hope you don't encounter a needlite, and you'll be golden). Once you have the Amulet of the Haven, put it on, and Alorob will be happy to do business with you. This is great news for those KOS in Rivervale.

Happy baking!

Silverfish

[Arghargh]

There are other costs involved to produce and to sell tradeskill items. You need time to sell your wares. At the very least, you have to sit in the bazaar, or run around /auctioning your products.

For some, there are out of game costs as well. How many people keep a second account and computer running to keep a bazaar mule up 24/7?

[Rewde]

Originally posted by Arghargh
There are other costs involved to produce and to sell tradeskill items. You need time to sell your wares. At the very least, you have to sit in the bazaar, or run around /auctioning your products.

For some, there are out of game costs as well. How many people keep a second account and computer running to keep a bazaar mule up 24/7?

Set your trader up to sell while you are sleeping or at work. You don't have to sell during your playing time. IF you choose to do so, that is your perogative, and should not factor into cost of a finished produt. For that matter, no time spent in the bazaar trying to sell your wares should factor into the price of an object.

As for out of game costs, hey, if someone has a second account to run their trader bot 24/7, that is their choice, it is not a prerequisite for playing this game.

Period. nuff said.

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Rewde
Set your trader up to sell while you are sleeping or at work. You don't have to sell during your playing time. IF you choose to do so, that is your perogative, and should not factor into cost of a finished produt. For that matter, no time spent in the bazaar trying to sell your wares should factor into the price of an object.

I've actually found that my prime play times (6-10PM CST) are really lousy times to sell. I keep my bazaar trader up and have found that during the day (5AM-6PM CST) is a great time to sell, and nights (10PM-5AM CST) are ok, but not great - the times correspond to when I go to sleep (10PM) and head out ofthe house for the day (5AM), YMMV and all that.

[kiatek]

I posted about the prices but wasn't really screaming about it. Like I said before, I will make them until it isn't worth my time anymore. And prices are NOT 9-10 pp each on most servers (which is what I used to sell them for consistently versus the 20-50 pp each they were always for sale at from others) I would be willing to bet. It's at 5 pp low regularly now on my server. /shrug I still don't know why people decide to undercut personally. Others will match your price, and then everyone is making less money on things.

[Vordok]

Originally posted by Rewde
For that matter, no time spent in the bazaar trying to sell your wares should factor into the price of an object.

I have to take exception to this. As selling time is a constraint on the resources of the person doing the selling, it is perfectly acceptable to factor it in to the price. I suspect that the way that this will happen for most people is that it will drive the price down rather than up, since they will want to get rid of the merchandise and get on to doing all that supposedly "fun" stuff that I'm told exists outside of merchant mining and trade skilling.

Also, for those who have the patience to auction or the DSL to leave their trader on 24/7, then they have every right to charge more, since they are choosing to trade their time for a larger return on investment.

The wonderful thing about a free market is that if it turns out that they value their time above what the market is willing to support then a) they won't sell their goods at the price they would like to and b) this will probably lead them to remove themselves from the market.

Vordok