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  • Grandmasters are a dime a dozen.

    This one's been a long time coming. It's been gradually building since 250-skill people became common, since the 1750 tradeskill lists started getting long, and now that the new tradeskill UI is out, it's easier than ever to raise skill in virtually all tradeskills.

    The desireable tradeskill items are no longer driven by difficulty to make, but by expense and scarcity of ingredients. Often, the finished product is worth less on the market than its unfinished components.

    Grandmaster smiths with skills of 250 and a +15% modifier item that required a raid to acquire make items with the same skill and efficiency as that of someone with a skill of 240 who bought a relatively cheap geerlok. People spend lots of time collecting the ingredients for a tough Livestone Plate combine, and go to any of a number of max-skill smiths, and see their efforts wasted on a failure. This kind of problem is not unique to smiths, either.

    Tradeskills are no longer a function of how good a craftsman someone is; after achieving a skill that is of increasingly nominal difficulty, all are equal. The only difference is that some are better at farming than others. There is no scaling, no incentive to get a better % modifier, no way to distinguish onesself from the rest of the field.

    Unless you're an enchanter. Then you can invest a bunch of AA's and become a better jewelcraftsman.

    Raising the effective skill cap could help. Even if a craftsman can only get to 250 skill, it would be nice to have some advantage afforded to the smith whose guild farmed XTC for the +15% hammer over some smith who bought himself a geerlok.

    Even better, in my opinion, would be to have AA's for other crafts besides jewelcraft. Most of the enchanters I know at the high end have 250 skill. I know only one that has her AA's maxxed out; guess who's the one people prefer to go to for combines?

    250 in a skill used to be a stunning achievement. Now it's less so. I submit that it is time for some other means to distinguish the true masters, those who love their craft more than whacking mobs, from the hobbyists.

    Feroce
    Last edited by FeroceFV; 02-16-2004, 10:11 AM.
    Battle Bard, Smith
    Molto Expressivo
    Firiona Vie

  • #2
    I dont disagree with what you are saying, but i dont beleve that there is anywhere near as many 250 people as you think.

    For example in my guild (~100 high end players... not counting twinks) .. there are 3 high end smiths .. and only I actually have the 250 skill.

    While it is more common than it used to be (I was the only 250 skill DE blacksmith on BB for a very long time) ... It's still not common to run into a high end tradeskill person.


    Thats said, it's just wrong that the 250 + trophy I earned with a $#@$ of a lot of work...

    is worth no more than someone with a 240 skill + 5% ..
    or someone with a 220 skill and a 15% item.

    Edit:

    Here is a link from the smithing board.. http://mboards.eqtraders.com/upload/...threadid=14074
    Last edited by Laeelin; 02-16-2004, 11:15 AM.
    Laeelin
    65 Dark Elven Necromancer of BristleBane

    250 Blacksmith
    185 Tailoring
    248 Brewing

    Comment


    • #3
      You used to be able to get to 245 smithing with fine steel. Now days to get there you need to spend ungodly amounts of plat buying rare components to get a chance at a skill up.

      So dont expect to see many new gm smiths any time soon.
      Dmuerte
      65 magi, forsaken guild, rodcet nife

      Comment


      • #4
        I've collected the stuff for friends after the change, and I dont find it much harder at all (and at least you can sell stuff you make for enough to not sink 100k into smithing)... Before I had to farm spiderling silk and LQ skins... now you need to farm other stuff... /shrug ..

        And some of that other stuff can be bought in the bazaar.

        There are MANY MANY more smiths now than there were before the changes to smithing.

        Of thoes 3 smiths I mentioned in my guild.... all but me started smithing in the last year.


        But all of that has NOTHING to do with this..

        The fact still remains that 220 skill + 15% should not be the same as 250 skill + 15%.

        At least not when the last 30 points take more work than the other 220 combined.
        Last edited by Laeelin; 02-16-2004, 12:34 PM.
        Laeelin
        65 Dark Elven Necromancer of BristleBane

        250 Blacksmith
        185 Tailoring
        248 Brewing

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Grandmasters are a dime a dozen.

          Would this thread be better suited to the Primal Scream room?

          Originally posted by FeroceFV
          Tradeskills are no longer a function of how good a craftsman someone is; after achieving a skill that is of increasingly nominal difficulty, all are equal. The only difference is that some are better at farming than others. There is no scaling, no incentive to get a better % modifier, no way to distinguish onesself from the rest of the field.
          In my opinion, tradeskills were never a function of how good a craftsman someone was. Either you succeed at making some item or you fail. There is no in-between stage indicative of "quality" as we determine it in the mundane world. There is no realisitic way for a person in the game to judge the "quality" of the work produced by a tradskiller.

          You can't judge the fitting at the hilt of a sword or the grind marks left on the blade (a mark of hurried work). They all look the same. You can't say you like or dislike the taste of an MTP like you could a real-world dinner. They all eat the same. You can taste the off-taste of foreign matter in Short Beer like you could with any home brew in the real world.

          You can't judge any tradeskilled item. An item is either produced or not produced. GM or simply a master or even a rank newbie, while having differing chances of success all produce the same "quality" item if they succeed. GM or newbie produce the same quality of item if they fail; that is, they produce nothing.

          Frankly I don't do the tradeskills because I want to distinguish myself from anyone. I just want to do tradeskills because I can. Others may have different reasons.
          ~ Jaddari Valindsdottir of Vainglory ~

          Comment


          • #6
            Well the way I look at it, everyone pays the same price for the same game. (Except Stormhammer, those guys are crazy)

            GM smitihing was a heck of alot easier to get pre FS nerf, its harder to do today even with the new UI.

            I dont cry over spilled milk. Not worth the stress. Just be happy we were groudbreakers, not followers.
            Last edited by Aethn; 02-16-2004, 12:55 PM.
            Gherig McComas
            Coyote Moon
            Test Server

            Comment


            • #7
              GM or newbie produce the same quality of item if they fail; that is, they produce nothing.
              Exactly.

              And at 220 skill + 15% item, or 240 skill + 5% item you have the exact same chance to makeing the item (and thats the ONLY diffrence between the stuff made)

              So there is no diffrence between 220 + 15% and 250 + 15% .. and there should be.

              Because they cant make a diffrence in quality, there should be a diffrence in chance to make (even if very small)
              Laeelin
              65 Dark Elven Necromancer of BristleBane

              250 Blacksmith
              185 Tailoring
              248 Brewing

              Comment


              • #8
                So there is no diffrence between 220 + 15% and 250 + 15% .. and there should be.
                From a smith's sdide maybe, but from a game side, no, making things easier for the top end would disrupt the balance of successful combines, meaning more items out on the market, and SOE has basicly stated that they do not wnt a lardge about of farwater plate out there, for example, with the difficulty and the drop rates, they would have to either re raise the skill caps on every item or have to make drops rarer.


                Dai
                Daikoku Ashikaga

                Lizard Samurai of Altered State

                Comment


                • #9
                  So there is no diffrence between 220 + 15% and 250 + 15% .. and there should be.
                  252 is the cap. Why should a Raid guild member have any better chance at TRADESKILLS... than a tradeskiller? You do have an advantage with a 220 +15%... it's called, not having to put up the plat, time, and effort to get to 240 and buy a geerlock.... you have ALREADY had your bonus.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    GM smitihing was a heck of alot easier to get pre FS nerf, its harder to do today even with the new UI.
                    People like to say that, because they didn't do it back then. I happen to disagree.

                    Back in the old days -

                    There was no bazaar. We usually had to farm everything because we couldn't find enough SUPPLY to keep up with our DEMAND when it came to Leather Padding.

                    I would spend 1 entire night farming spiderlings to make 100 threads.

                    I would then go spend another night farming pelts to make leather padding. I had to do all the combines as I looted pelts, because PELTS DIDN'T STACK BACK THEN.

                    On the 3rd night, I had to haul UNSTACKABLE bricks of metal and make UNSTACKABLE SHEETS of METAL in Highpass. And then take my UNSTACKABLE SHEETS to Freeport to buy the molds. Then do some combines, and then go back to Highpass to get more metal.

                    I did this over and over, usually 3 days of my playing time spent doing nothing but farming and combining each week. And each week those 3 days meant ZERO XP and possibly a few skill up points in Smithing. I'd then go hunting and get some xp and money, because I needed the money to help pay for all the metal and molds I was buying.

                    So now days you have the bazaar. Hundreds of items needed to do tradeskills all available at the touch of a button. You can do smithing up to 200+ without farming a single item yourself if you have the cash.

                    And the people who have 18 AA's to burn on Taanans are probably level 65 and HAVE THE CASH to buy what they need. Unlike myself you started smithing long, long ago.

                    Check the LDoN items for easy skill ups. I just looked on my server's bazaar and there is literally HUNDREDS of tempers and components for tempers for sale.
                    Last edited by Zacatac; 02-16-2004, 07:58 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Why should a Raid guild member have any better chance at TRADESKILLS... than a tradeskiller?
                      You missunderstand us...

                      Why should someone that has done everything possible to improve his tradeskills have the same chances as someone that has done half the work?

                      I dont have a 15% item.. I all I have is my trophy. Why should someone with 30 points less skill have the same chance as me?

                      They shouldnt.

                      The CAP is the problem.

                      ===

                      Look at it this way..

                      I'm working on tailoring right now, i'm at 185 currently..

                      I'm in a raiding guild. I ask them to hit akheva so i can get a 15% tailoring item..

                      Do you feel it's fair that after spending an hour raiding I have the same chance to make something as you do with a 250 skill and a trophy? .. or someone at 240 and a tinkered hammer even...

                      It's not that it's unfair to the raiders(after all, if your staying at 220, then your main focus isnt tradeskills), it's that it's unfair to the GM tradeskill people.

                      I dont want a better chance than another 250 smith.. I want a better chance than a 220 skill smith.. thats what i'm asking for.
                      Laeelin
                      65 Dark Elven Necromancer of BristleBane

                      250 Blacksmith
                      185 Tailoring
                      248 Brewing

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        People like to say that, because they didn't do it back then. I happen to disagree.
                        So do I ..

                        Also 10k back then was a lot more than 10k is now.
                        Laeelin
                        65 Dark Elven Necromancer of BristleBane

                        250 Blacksmith
                        185 Tailoring
                        248 Brewing

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So what? Who should care how many tradeskillers there are at 250? I have been tradeskilling since I got the game a year and a half ago. There are people who have started after me and have both gotten to 250 in tradeskills AND to 65. And it has no effect on the way I play the game.

                          SOE is making tradeskilling interesting because that is all there is left for many of the 65 crowd to do. SOE has figured out that there must be something fun in making usefull stuff out of junk so they are improving it to keep players playing. It was bound to happen sooner or later that "everyone" would be doing it. (tradeskilling)

                          It still takes time to find the right information to get to 250. One cannot simply go to the bazaar and start buying random stuff. (There's never enough of that one thing I need in the bazaar no matter how much money I have) One has to have a plan, understand triv rates, get the right gear, and hunt for the right resources.

                          Remember, you can only lose the game if you let the other guy keep score :lol:
                          Pottery 159 Tailoring 188 Brewing 170 Baking 178 Smithing 205 Alchemy 114, Fishing 35, JC 15, Fletching 0

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ive been playing eq for a good lil but now and never really got into tradeskilling. I got fetching to like 100 when i used to make my own arrorws and i did brewing to like 55 because i am a Rl bartender. I did smithing to 180 for Seru Bane.

                            One day i see a link of the Signet of Might. I research it and decide to give it a shot. I looked forward to the challange of trying to tradeskill a troll Warrior such as myself.

                            So yes you can add me to the growing list of noob tradeskillers( been doing it now for about 4 months).

                            Im in a very close to Time enabled guild with 100+ members 50 who are regulars and i only know of 7 of us doing the Aid Grimil quest.
                            Smithing 230 +10% mod
                            pottery 225
                            Brewing 230--pre new ui 250 GM after new UI
                            Baking 215
                            Jewerly 200
                            Fletching 200
                            Tailoring 197

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              How You Spend Your Time

                              Laeelin wrote:

                              "Do you feel it's fair that after spending an hour raiding I have the same chance to make something as you do with a 250 skill and a trophy? .. or someone at 240 and a tinkered hammer even...

                              It's not that it's unfair to the raiders(after all, if your staying at 220, then your main focus isnt tradeskills), it's that it's unfair to the GM tradeskill people.

                              I dont want a better chance than another 250 smith.. I want a better chance than a 220 skill smith.. thats what i'm asking for."

                              It seems your argument boils down to the problem of equipment versus practice. Said another way, "I got my 1HB up to 110, so shouldn't I do more damage than someone who got it to 100 and uses a weapon with the same damage/delay but plus ten percent to 1HB?" My simple answer is no, because your post trivializes the effort needed to get such an item. While you were getting from 220 to 250 in smithing, he was putting effort into getting into a raid guild and building up enough raid credit so that he can request a directed raid to get him a very high level item. That's not something to be cast aside lightly, because it's likely he went on an awful lot of raids just to build up that credit, time he could have spent smithing or farming shadowscream components instead.

                              In short, if someone can get an item that allows him to get to 252 modified skill even with 220 real skill, then why shouldn't he be allowed to "run with the big dogs" for the effort? If it was as easy as going to the Bazaar and buying an "ultra-Geerlok" I'd understand, but this is a top-end raid we're discussing here. Even if the raid itself only takes an hour, the effort necessary to get to the point where everyone is standing there waiting to start the raid cannot be ignored.

                              Silverfish

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