Cheating and smithing

[Lyron]

Rumor has it there is a way to make a profit {much more easily than you should.} If this is real, and you know about it, I urge you to tell SOE (en masse) about it. This isn't just about some people working their fingers to the bone for a few plat, this is about people using macros (outside programs that do the clicks for you, which are of course against TOS) to do it painlessly. Every piece of plat that enters an economy illegally reduces the buying power of money made fairly, whether it's from mobs, or from honest tradeskillers selling their wares.

{Edited by Verdandi to remove a few details. I appreciate that you didn't exactly explain it, but no reason to give any detail at all. I encourage anyone interested to read this post in General.}

[Aethia]

Servers have just come down, allegedly to fix this exploit. A friend was smithing and noticed a player using this exploit.

He petitioned, and this morning the GM contacted him and confirmed that the emergency patch this morning was to fix this exploit.

While frustrating that the servers are down (I had hoped to GM brew with my darling druid), I am glad at the fast reaction time from SOE. However, having done smithing to 200, either this is a new exploit or I just missed it when I did my smithing.

Now, to see how they fix it.... hoping a nerf on the sell back price and not an increase in the cost of materials.... but we shall see. As long as the cheaters are stopped.

[eniamn]

the combine is a very low yeild. maybe 1pp per if that. it only makes money when you macro it. the weight of the items is also prohibitive.

[iikarius]

it was a 6pp profit from 4 vender purchased items, 1 stacked, the other 3 didnt. but sold in unlimited supply. I am willing to bet this has been around for a long time, hence the large number of plat for sale on *************s.

iik

[arador_stormbow]

This helps to explain why I saw the same person at a Qeynos forge, going back and forth between forge and vender, every time I looked for days straight. I thought they were just being rude by not replying when I asked when they were going to finish. Now I know it was probably a bot.

[eniamn]

it has been a way to legitimately lower your smithing costs. takes 9 for the block of ore for folded mq sheets. think i will do this next time i smith fine plate.

um is that too much info? edit if it is. it is a way to lower costs legitimately.

[Galain]

From what I understand you have an outlay of around a gold with a sellback of around 17pp. The problem isn't the recipe which is most definitely a legitimate recipe, but the profit you can make running a macro.

[Silound]

The issue is the ability to macro it nonstop. If I can make back 3pp per combine, I know I can at least do that combine around 20 times a minute, times 60 minutes in an hour times 24 hours in the day and I can make 28,800pp per day. and if the macroer had more than one account running, he could easily produce 70+ kpp pe day.

Disclaimer: I do not, never have, and never will take part in any exploit or macro or cheat. I merely use myself as an example in this post.

[KyrosKrane]

This is a pricing bug, pure and simple. One particular item should be priced at 2-3pp per unit. Instead, it's priced at 1sp. At the normal price, any combines using that item would sell back to the vendor for a little below your cost, resulting in a net loss. At 1sp, however, almost any combine using that item will sell back to a vendor for a profit.

This is a very similar situation to Nimren Stonecutter and the Coldain Velium tempers. Due to a pricing bug, Nimren was handing out the CVT for free. Since only one vendor in the whole game (Nimren himself) carries those, they were able to contain the problem by killing the vendor, then fix it by patching only his zone (Thurgadin).

The 1sp problem, however, is far more widespread. The affected component is carried by many vendors all over the world. It's simply impractical to kill them all, and patching the entire game world is something they're apparently only willing to do in dire emergencies -- the last two patches this week notwithstanding.

It's good to note, though, that they DID fix the pricing issue with another, similar component that was yielding similar profit margins. However, due to the nature of the supplies and combines involved, the 1sp component bug is far more disruptive when macroed.

[cmcsess]

OK now I'm confused

I'm still not exactly clear on the definition of the exploit here. Obviously using a macro would be an exploit, and Absor says that folks using this particular recipe in the course of regular tradeskilling will not be affected, but I'm still not quite clear, are folks who make an item by doing all the clicking manually, and selling the item back to a vendor for profit, also exploiting the game?

[Astroshak]

Basically, if you were buying the item(s) to use for skilling in some way shape or form, then you were good to go. However, if you were simply buying to make the combine(s) and sell, without trying to gain skill, then you're exploiting.

[Amanensia]

Basically, if you were buying the item(s) to use for skilling in some way shape or form, then you were good to go. However, if you were simply buying to make the combine(s) and sell, without trying to gain skill, then you're exploiting.

Not sure I agree with that. That would mean that your motivation is the key to guilt, rather than your actions.

If you are macroing, you are clearly breaking the rules and deserve to be banned.

If you find a recipe that gives a profit when you buy and sell the components and results to vendors, even when you click the combines yourself and never go near a macro, then either that is an exploit or it isn't. I can't see how you can say it's an exploit if it's trivial for you, but not otherwise.

I guess the point at which non-macro profits becomes an exploit is subjective, partly. If a two item combine yields a 100 plat profit then it's an exploit. If a 10 item combine with lots of sub-combines yields a 1 copper profit then it probably isn't. Somewhere in between is the line, but different people will draw it at different places.

[Astroshak]

Amanensia, its simple. Perhaps my word choice was somewhat confusing to you. In essence, if you're buying some materials, to make a combine that sells for more than what it cost you to make, in order to sell that result back to a NPC, then you are probably exploiting a pricing bug. Yes, by that definition, enchanters who skilled by enchanting everything, especially after geerloks came out to make successes more frequent, were exploiting the pricing.

If you're buying materials, to make a subcombine for some other recipe, so long as you're using those results in that other recipe (armor, some food, what have you) then, even if the result of the subcombine would vendor for more than it cost you to make the subcombine, you're safe. Absor was looking for those who made tons of the subcombine to sell, not those who made tons of that subcombine to keep and use in the future. Most commonly, those who were making something that sold to NPC's for more than the cost to buy the materials from the NPC's were making combines that were trivial to them; thats what I was referring to when I said "without trying to gain skill" . . . and even if it wasn't trivial when they started, by the time they finished it most likely was.

PS - Say "Hi" to Aelin, Mellissa, Mixtress, Verminus, Celalta, and all the others who came from Souls into yours, for Roth.

[trethyl]

profit from combines

it has been clearly stated by soe that in no case are you to be able to make profit from combines where all materials are vendor bought. if you do any combine where you buy all the materials and the end result is sold to the vendor for than the total cost of the items it takes to make it then the priceing is wrong somewhere

[Krazick]

The other thing to keep in mind here is the number of times it is done.

Lets take an example... say

Medium Quality Folded Sheet Metal

Takes: Water Flask, Block of Medium Quality Ore, Smithy Hammer in a Forge ...

Trivial at 36

Water Flask Cost is 1 SP
Block of Medium Quality Ore Cost is 20PP 5GP 2SP 7CP
Smithy Hammer Cost is irrelevant, since it is returned, success or failure.

Total Cost per Combine is 20 PP, 5 GP, 3 SP, 7 CP

And say, the Sale back of the finished product Medium Quality Folded Sheet of Metal is 30 PP.. you make 9 PP, 4 GP, 6 SP, 3 CP per combine that succeeds.

If you do this combine once... and find this... and bug it... then you are fine.

If you do it twice... or even a third time just to verify... say once after each patch... to see if it is fixed... you are probably still ok... BUT

What you should do, is just hang onto the product, and walk up to Vendor to Check what they will buy it for, and what the Block is currently selling for. But Don't actually perform the transaction.

It is when you go and do the purchase, combine, sale REPEATEDLY, whether you macro it or click it yourself that it becomes an issue.

YOU KNOW you have found a loophole and you are purposefully taking advantage of it to line your pockets that is the problem they are trying to address. Not someone simply tradeskilling to produce an item or gain a skill point or two.