Halas 10lb. Meat Pies

[Magpye]

Okay, so this is a somewhat silly rant...but it drives me up the wall every time I meet someone working on baking skill and they tell me they're making Halas pies to skill up on.

I too tried out pies when my baking got past the easy recipes like patty melts, ohabah truffles, and pixie powder cinnesticks. After the first 40 final combines I decided to give misty thicket picnics a whirl instead...and couldn't help noticing how much faster it was to do picnics.

So I sat down with Excel and worked out how many precombines it takes to set up for 20 final combines. The result? 141 precombines (!!!) to make 20 final combines of Halas pies. And only 24 precombines to make the same amount of final combines of picnics. Sure, picnics require a couple other tradeskills for the precombines - but you can get to 188 brewing in a couple hours work for under 100p, and to the needed tailoring and smithing levels for not much more.

Basically, it's my considered opinion that anyone making pies for skill ups is just asking for pain (mental and possibly physical as well). In the time it takes to set up to make 20 pies, you could have set up to make almost 120 picnics. Granted, the failure rate on picnics is abysmal (even at 250 skill with geerlock and spoon, I rarely get even a 50% success rate), but they are SO much easier to make! And at least on my server, sell for considerably more in bazaar (halas pies often as low as 2 to 3p each - picnics from 6 to 12p).

I won't even make pies for my own characters to consume. I'd rather make and sell picnics and buy the pies.

For the number oriented among you, here are my calculations on the precombines:

Halas 10lb. Meat Pies
3 - combines to make dough (40 dough needed, using looted basilisk eggs for 15 per combine)
2 - combines to make 20 fillets each of wolf and mammoth
40 - combines to make 20 fillets each of bear and lion
2 - combines to make cream (8 per combine, 14 needed)
14 - combines to make creamy fennel sauce (6 per combine, 80 needed)
80 - combines to combine the fillets with the cream
TOTAL - 141 combines

Misty Thicket Picnics
2 - combines to make woven mandrake (tailoring, t.66)
2 - combines to make steel boning (smithing, t.37)
2 - combines to make 20 baskets (tailoring, t.76)
1 - combine to make 6 apricot marmalade (2 needed)
2 - combines to make 24 marmalade sandwiches (20 needed)
2 - combines to make 20 jumjum spiced beer (brewing, t.162)
2 - combines to make 20 jumjum salad
2 - combines to make 20 royal mints
2 - combines to make 20 mature cheese
1 - combine to make 15 dough (1 needed)
1 - combine to make 1 winter chocolate
1 - combine to make 20 jumjum spiced cakes (4 needed)
4 - combines to slice cakes into 40 slices
TOTAL - 24 combines

And here is the brewing path I used to get my cleric from 0 to 188 brewing in a couple of hours one day (and she's been toiling her way towards 250 ever since, hehehe):
- Bog juice to 21 (all ingredients available in PoK)
- Fish wine to 62 (all ingredients available in PoK)
- 2x Brewed 2x Stout dwarven ale to 142 (all ingredients available from vendor beside brew barrel in Kaladim)
- Faydwer Shaker to 188 (all ingredients available by running or faithstoning/gating between Kaaldin and Felwithe)

[Katalaeia]

This is why I tried pies once and will never go back. MTPs rule!

[Cigarskunk]

Amen brother - welcome to the secret society of GM baking through MTP instead of HMP.

If I had a plat for every time I've debated with folks who swear to high heaven that HMP are the way to go, I'd be able to afford to skill up on sickles to GM smithing.

Another thing you've got to take into consideration is the cost per combine of these two - a HMP combine is about 5 times more expensive then a MTP combine if memory serves, plus, since MTPs sell for atleast twice as much as a HMP, that means that you need to sell 10 HMPs for every 1 MTP you sell in order to make the same profit.

So once this is taken into account, even the 1 success in 20 which you'll average until you hit around 200 or so skill in baking will result in better overall plat flow for your baking skill up sessions.

Additionally, the other three tradeskills needed for making MTPs can be effectively skilled up on during the process of making the materials for the MTPs.

This means that you are effectively getting those skills trained up FOR FREE.

Finally, there's also the time issue involved in farming raw materials - 1 mamoth meat gets you 10 HMP combines while 1 brownie part gets you 100 MTP combines. That means that you've got to kill 10 mamoths for every one brownie to skill up. In other words, if it takes 5 minutes to score each kill, then 1000 MTP combines will take 50 minutes of hunting brownies while 1000 HMP combines will take 8 hours and 20 minutes of mamoth farming - you could GM baking using MTPs in the time that it's going to take you just to farm enough mamoth meat to get from 192 to 200.

[Lilosh]

Re: Halas 10lb. Meat Pies

Originally posted by Magpye
- Bog juice to 21 (all ingredients available in PoK)
- Fish wine to 62 (all ingredients available in PoK)

*cough*
Fetid Essence
*cough*


-Lilosh

[Phabos]

/e hits Lilosh on the back with his mace to get that frog out of his throat

Now that that has been taken care of, I too am a reformed HMP baker. Yes, at one time the thought of being self-sufficient and farming my own meat and eggs appealed to me, but the endless clicking for so few skillup chances soon converted me. (Actually, it was the huge market crash that saw pies drop in price from 8pp each to 1pp, but allow me to wax eloquent about principle without bringing economics into yet another thread.)

As I was saying, it is much easier (and cheaper) to buy the Fruit and Vegetables that are needed for a long MTP run than to try to find Mammoth Meat and making seemingly endless stacks of cream and fennel sauce, not to mention the cost of one Sage Leaf per combine. (In other words, it's more expensive to make HMPs than MTPs, although price plays no part in principle.)

For those of us who are lacking in inventory space, there is little sense in baking something that trivials at a relatively low level and yields six of the finished product. Thus, four successes on pie combines takes up one and one fifth stacks, while five successful picnic combines yield one stack, thereby lessening the room needed. (Picnics also sell for, on average, 6-10pp each, but let's not talk economics, okay?)

Then, for those who must carry their yields with them, Halas 10lb Meat Pies have a weight of 7.2 units, as opposed to a scant 0.1 unit of weight for a Misty Thicket Picnic. (Of course, once sold, the plat made from selling picnics weighs considerably more, but that problem is easily disposed of.)

In short, there are many rea$on$ to switch from Halas Meat Pies to Misty Thicket Picnics, all of them based on sound principle$, and not economic factors.


Phabo$ Aph$ion
Drunken Paladin of Brell
Tarew Marr
Purveyor of High Quality Baked Goods and Low Quality Leather Padding.

[kiztent]

I've done both, MTP are the devil for skill ups in the range that HMP are the best skill up choice. I'd get much higher skill up rates on HMP versus MTP. MTP were great for skills post 220 - well the one run I did - but HMP are the way to go from 191 to 2-whatevertheytrivialat.

[Lilosh]

Originally posted by kiztent
I've done both, MTP are the devil for skill ups in the range that HMP are the best skill up choice. I'd get much higher skill up rates on HMP versus MTP. MTP were great for skills post 220 - well the one run I did - but HMP are the way to go from 191 to 2-whatevertheytrivialat.

*cough*
226
*cough*


Sorry folks, I've got a cold today.

And yes, MTP for skillups are the DEVIL. I am convinced that MTP have a 1 per 100 combines skillup rate, on a good with a strong wind.

-Lilosh

[Nhin Impious]

And yes, MTP for skillups are the DEVIL. I am convinced that MTP have a 1 per 100 combines skillup rate, on a good with a strong wind.

I found MTP's to have a rate of 1 per 20-40, with a WIS of around 230, during the period from 178 to 250, with a short run in the 190's of 5-6 stacks of combines for one point.

Perhaps the strong wind is your problem, Lilosh; have you considered repeated casting of the appropriate level 1 Conjuration spell to improve that? I understand the Druid version is known as Breaking Wind.

Nhinx Aphsion
Grandmistress Baker, Death-Kiting Vicar, and also crazy enough to marry a Drunken Paladin of Brell

[Tinile]

When I decided baking would be my next skill to 250, I was lucky to find already fileted bear and mammoth meats on a vendor. I quickly grabbed them all up and saved them until I was ready. I spent my 3 AA points and collected my meats and the remaining supplies. It is impossible to hold supplies for a large run of HMPs. Even after having an easy start to the HMP process, I was loathing the stacks of meat I had found. HMPs are so tedious, I vowed never to touch the stuff after I used up my pre-fileted meats. The number of subcombines is ridiculous for skilling up.

I did most of my 200+ on PoP recipes, buying them cheap in bazaar or looting them myself. They of course were a joy to skill up on. The meat sellers seemed to catch on to my plan and suddenly, when I was at about 230, all the PoP meats had huge inflation bursts. I then decided to do MTPs.

MTPs were something I was trying to avoid. I remember attempting them at 191 to get to 200, back when they were fairly new. After the HMP fiasco, MTPs were a breeze to skill up on. SH is ideal for MTPs. I would buy my bazaar stuff, make the brew, make the boning/mandrake and stack everything in sections and head to the oven. It was so easy to do 100 combines at a time. Nothing took too much room, everything was convenient. I also had a lot of luck on my skill ups. One run of 100 combines netted me 9 skill ups, starting at 233 iirc.

People who say MTPs are worse then HMPs for skill ups need something examined, whether it be their head, eyes or mouse fingers!

[Xenephex]

When I'm skilling on MTPs, I buy/prepare enough stuff for 400 attempts at a time and then I hit the oven with enough for 200 attempts (this is all in PoK).

By 'buy/prepare', I mean that I leave the Western trader building with enough stuff for 400 attempts - Eucalytpus leaves, woven mandrake, etc. (though I got lucky yesterday and bought 9 stacks of picnic baskets off of vendors back there).

I keep an extra stack of woven mandrake in the bank. I long ago made a bp full of steel boning; I have a bp full of Jum-jum stalks and more on a mule. I also have a bunch of cakes pre-made.

When I head for the oven, I pre-make 10 stacks each of picnic baskets, Jum-jum salad and Jum-jum spiced beer. I make the mature cheese, marmalade sandwiches and royal mints as I go along, and I also slice the cakes between each batch of 20 combines. I keep a few extra Eucalytpus leaves and cakes in a BP in case of failures - everything else can be purchased within a few steps of the oven in the Eastern Trader building if I fail on any of the sub-combines.

After the first 100 attempts, I go ahead and finish up all the other pre-combines for the second 100.

Yes, MTPs can be a bit complex - I still have to look up the sub-combine recipes even after 1400 plus attempts, but when I think what it would take to get ready for 200 or 400 HMP combines, I'll gladly stick with the MTPs.

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Tinile
People who say MTPs are worse then HMPs for skill ups need something examined, whether it be their head, eyes or mouse fingers!

Empirically speaking I got 2-3 times more skillups per combine on average with HMP than MTP in the 188-220 range. Since outside of my main (smith) few of my tradeskillers have other skills over 100, MTP involved a considerable amount of plat shuffling and part transfer to prep parts make.

In terms of time/skill up, I found HMP to be well superior - especially since I rarely play a forager.

[Calabar]

Here’s a question I’d appreciate your opinion on, after a somewhat brief history. At one point my druid was going to be my main trade skill character and baking was going to be his first GMed trade skill. After terrible luck with truffles I switched to the nightmare that are Halas Pies. During this time I found creamy fennel sauce on a vendor for about 1 sp each. So I started buying it. To my complete astonishment I kept buying it and buying it and buying it. In total I filled about 15 ten slot backpacks. Even after hitting the trivial level for Halas Pies I have backpacks full scattered over several characters.

Well, now my shaman is my main character and my main trade skill character. His baking is 192 and its time to make a decision about how to reach 200 and, after a few AAs, 250 baking. With all those stacks of creamy fennel sauce in my banks, along with a few stacks of mammoth and wolf meat, should I simply bite the arrow shaft and make Halas Pies until they trivial or would it still be easier to sell it all and make Misty Picnics?

[Balkin]

*shrug*

Since you have some of your subcombines done already, I personally would go ahead and use up the meat you have for HMP's. I'm using MTP's myself, but whenever I find oh, say, mamoth meat on a vendor I save it and do a mini run of HMP's. I don't search for mamoth meat, but I use 'em when I find 'em.

[Phabos]

Originally posted by Calabar
Even after hitting the trivial level for Halas Pies I have backpacks full scattered over several characters... With all those stacks of creamy fennel sauce in my banks, along with a few stacks of mammoth and wolf meat, should I simply bite the arrow shaft and make Halas Pies until they trivial or would it still be easier to sell it all and make Misty Picnics?

Without a doubt, I say yes. One wolf and mammoth meat yield 10 fillets each, and filleting the bear/lion meats aren't too difficult. Once that's done, all you have left is one fillet + one sauce, and then putting the results in the oven with your pie tin and sage leaf.

Once the sauce and farmed meat is taken care of, the hard parts of HMPs are over. Plus, if you alredy have several stacks of sauce scattered all over the place, you might as well use it as opposed to it taking up valuable bank space.

This is, however, one of the few times I would EVER recommend making Meat Pies.


Phabos Aphsion
Drunken Paladin of Brell
Tarew Marr
Wielder of the Grandmaster's Baking Spoon of Death and Destruction (and it whips up a decent souffle to boot)

[Sanna]

If you don't want to use the CFS, try to sell it. Someone might buy.

I had the same thing happen to me, about finding an annoying subcombine on a vendor, in frighteningly plurality. In my case, it was both Picnic Baskets and JumJum Spiced Beer, both of which are still on both my mules.




I realize I'm in the wrong camp here, but I find nothing at all wrong with Halas 10. The subcombines don't bother me, I do them as I xp and shove them in the appropriate set of boxes. Then, suddenly, I find I have enough for a stack or two worth of combines. I make them, shove them on the trader as I go (aah, the glory of having two accounts, I am atrociously lucky), and let her /trader and sell.


I have made about 10k over the course of the few months I've been selling these.
..... I'M A NOOB, 10k is still a lot to me. ^_^.

I also believe in making something till you get close to trivial. Successes = product to sell = plat. I have a massive amount of griffon meat stored up for when I hit 226. The closer I am to trivial on the griffon stuffs, the more successes I'll have. Successes = happy me.


Will I get to MTPs? Yes. Soon? Probably. Those 15 boxes of Baskets and Beer are beginning to annoy me; I need the space, pretty badly. Would I expend tremendous energy cautioning someone to take one path and not the other? Not necessarily.

My one thing, tho:
Mammoth Meat vs Brownie Parts.
Anyone past 30 can go to EF and fight for some mammoths pretty easily. The higher you are, the easier. Brownies, tho, scare the fudge out of me. But that may just be me.




Personally, Halas 10 will never make me twitch at the mention of the name.
To each their own. At least Baking isn't Smithing. ^_^

-- Sanna
will be sad when she hits 250 Baking.... nowhere to go when you're at the top. ^_^