What in the holy name of heck is this?

[Eumerin]

That's easy enough to figure out. Just go to Lucy, pull up Yaulp V, click 'Stacking', and take a look at which spells have higher modifiers for the lines in question.

And that gives us...

Strength of Tunare (higher attack)

The above will probably overwrite Yaulp (not that this is likely, given Yaulp's very short duration), and will prevent Yaulp from being cast.

That's the only spell, other than Yaulp 6 and some chanter hastes that might cause a problem.

However, if we look at the other spells listed, we find...

Spiritual Vigor

This spell actually has a lower attack, but it includes the line

Stacking: Block new spell if slot 1 is effect 'ATK' and < 115

This means that if Yaulp is cast while this spell is up, Yaulp will bounce.


Ironically, the only reason that line is there is probably to block the spell Strength of Tunare.

[Grimina]

Okay, "newb" question. Are all those things what yaulpV won't stack with? And I'd need to look at each to see if it would just block it, or if the particular effect just doesn't do anything (ie: with shaman haste, the yaulp haste doesn't do anything but the dex still takes effect)?

Tis why I don't use Lucy to check that kinda stuff because I'm not understanding what I'm looking at *blush*

[Eumerin]

Heh.

Lucy is quite simply to read once you understand how it works. Basically, a spell is composed of a number of lines. For instance, Augmentation looks like this:

1: Increase Attack Speed by 22% (L29) to 28% (L52)
2: Increase AGI by 19 (L29) to 30 (L50)
3: Increase AC by 5 (L29) to 9 (L50)
4: Decrease Stamina Loss by 2
5: Stacking: Block new spell if slot 3 is effect 'AC' and < 100

It has five different lines, and each line has a different effect on it. No two spells can affect the same stat on the same line and be up at the same time. For example, if someone casts a new spell that has an AGI modification on line 2, then either the spell will bounce, or it will overwrite Augmentation. A spell that has an AC modification in line 2 can, however, be up at the same time as Augmentation despite the fact that Augmentation uses line 2 for something else and also has an AC modification in line 3.

Augmentation uses the first five lines. But there is no reason why it had to use those particular lines. For example, the paladin Brell line of spells ONLY uses line 4. Lines 1-3 simply do not exist.

Now how do you know what does and does not stack?

The first way is through trial and error. For example, Blessing of Aegolism is a combination of three different cleric buffs. The spell will be engineered to overwrite those cleric buffs and not stack with spells that those cleric buffs did not stack with. For instance, one of the spells that is 'used' in BoA is Heroic Bond. By the time clerics get BoA, I would expect that they are fully aware that Heroic Bond will not stack with the druid line of hp buffs. Therefore, BoA will not stack with the druid line of hp buffs, either. When someone casts one of these two buffs on someone who has the other, the two buffs will compare, and if the new buff has a larger value in ONE of the contested lines (only the contested lines matter, and only one line needs to be larger), then the new buff will overwrite the prior buff. Both BoA and the druid hp lines have +HP in the same line, and BoA always has a larger value than the druid buffs, so BoA will always overwrite the druid buffs. The only value that the two lines share is the hp line, so there is no way for the druid buff to overwrite BoA.

The second way to figure out if there are stacking issues is to pull up the spell you wish to examine in Lucy. At the top right hand side of the screen, it will read 'Stacking'. Select this, and you will be presented with a line by line description of every spell in the game that might have stacking issues with the spell. The ones with a larger value will overwrite the spell you're examining. The ones with a lower value generally won't overwrite the spell, but due to various issues, many of these spells have lately been granted additional lines of text - typically to keep them from being overwritten. This typically comes about because players keep unintentionally overwriting the buffs of others and then the overwritten players complain about it. So which spells have these lines depends largely on who the squeaky wheels have been. Of course, this also includes spells that are conglomerates of a few different buffs. No one would want BoAegolism overwritten just because a higher level cleric cast a higher level version of the AC buff that is a part of BoA, and there is a line in the spell to prevent this.

In the case of Yaulp, its not so much other spells overwriting Yaulp (because Yaulp is rarely up when buffs are being cast), but rather that spells go up that Yaulp can't overwrite.


It should also be noted that a detrimental spell will ALWAYS overwrite a buff, no matter how powerful the buff. For example, Malaise, a level 24 magician debuff, will always overwrite Elemental Barrier, a level 61 magician buff (provided the former isn't resisted, of course).

[Grimina]

Okay, so to find out if it would just block it all together (on any buff I mean) I gotta look at the individual spells in the stacking screen for that buff. That's not too bad then hehe. Only one I ever really had a problem with was Yaulp and now I know which ones completely block it and which will just not let certain components act. Thanks for the help =)

[Boleslav]

Eileah wrote:

"Pot9 = HP 618/AC 32/Mana 8 per tic

WoG = AC 54

SoK = HP 910

Pot9+WoG+SoK = AC 86/Hp 1528/Mana 8 per tic

HoV = HP 1405/AC 72

Pot9+WoG+SoK > Virtue for everyone Melee and Caster alike."

You are forgetting Blessed Armor of the Risen for Clerics and Aura of the Crusader for Paladins. PoT9 blocks both of these spells.

As a Paladin, I prefer Hand of Virtue (1450 HP / 72 AC) + Aura of the Crusader (350 HP + 3 Mana regen) = 1800 HP + 72 AC + 3 Mana Regen to the other combination which yields 1528 HP + 86 AC + 8 Mana Regen. Those 172 extra HP make a difference in how I tank.

So in this, as with many things, your mileage may vary.

Boleslav Forgehammer
Paladin of Brell in his 65th Campaign
E'ci – Sacred Destiny

[Zereh]

Blessing of the Nine - 618hp, 32ac, 8mana/tic
Mark of Kazad - 910hp
Focus of the Seventh - 544hp
Ward of Gallantry - 54ac
Virtue - 1405hp, 72ac
Armor of the Zealot - 450hp, 36ac, 8mana/tic

Virtue/Seventh (non-clerics) = 1949hp, 72ac,
Virtue/Zealot (usually clerics) = 1855hp, 108ac, 8mana/tic
Kazad/Nine/Seventh/WoG = 2072hp, 86ac, 8mana/tic

But who bothers to woggy in XP groups? Not me, unless someone specifically asks for it. 99% of the time it's HoV for XPing anyway. It's not often that we have a druid & shaman & cleric in a single group.

Besides, how the heck was that cleric supposed to know that Lilosh had 9? I can't imagine that the two extra mana regen is gonna make or break your group (9 Vs Cabbage or the group version, Grove). Or at least it shouldn't.

Z

[Sanna]

never deny a cleric their mana. ^_^!

common scene from roomie's screen (she's a cleric too)
group leader: mana check?
roomie: 11m.
groupleader: I am pulling a target... inc!
roomie: I SAID ELEVEN MANA!




and just so you know, if it's any consolation... a relative noob is being educated from this thread. ^_^ my druid shall now always announce any buffs she casts on people, give them time to respond to the inc buff.

It's also good for those of us who have yet to reach the new kei-ing level, IE are low and un-uber, to see what kinds of things to look forwards to and be careful of.

I can guess the experience sucked, lilosh, but thanks for sharing it here...
/hug

-- sanna
ironically, denial of kei didn't hurt my leveling one bit... I still level at the same freaking snail's pace I did before.

[Lilosh]

Originally posted by Zereh
Besides, how the heck was that cleric supposed to know that Lilosh had 9? I can't imagine that the two extra mana regen is gonna make or break your group (9 Vs Cabbage or the group version, Grove). Or at least it shouldn't.

1) I told the group, when I joined, that I had KEI and Nine. *shrug*. Besides, I'm ranting about common courtesy of announcing buffs and asking if people want it.

2) At 58, I don't have Cabbage. That's next level. And no chanter in the group means that when KEI wore off, I'd be without mana-help.

[Eumerin]

Actually, its just a good idea in general to alert the group when you're going to cast a group buff. There's nothing worse than having a level 60 cleric cast BoA, and then 5 minutes later, your own BoA, which was cast by a level 61 cleric with a couple more AA, starts to fade.

DOH!!!


If you announce the spell beforehand, not only does it allow those who don't want it to get out of range, but it also allows those who do want it to quickly click off any buffs that might keep it from landing.

[Mystrice]

Wow, now THAT was an informational thread. It was a rant..but from the 20min I just spent reading that whole thread I learned alot. Now I just wonder which classes cast wok and sok...

From lookin at Zereh's equations there I would like to know who casts Zealot, that's going to be the combo I next ask for when I log on.

Zereh are you on Terris Thule? I knew I new that name from somewhere....

[Khael]

Originally posted by OberonMiM
But seriously druids complain to us that they want their "own" buff then complain when we dont wanna give them symbol. Then dont seem to understand that virtue line lasts ALOT longer which in the end saves us time.

...

As far as raids. Even when/if we decide to virtue for everyone (to avoid rebuffing all the time) there will still be some druid that asks for symbol constantly which annoys the @#$# out of me just cause they canceled my virtue and put up their own little buff and expects me to waste more mana on them

Oberon, you realize that Bot9, Kazad, and Fo7 give more mana / hp than Virtue / AotZ, right? It's more hp for the tanks (except the pallies who use self buff + virtue), better mana regen for the casters, and more hp and the same regen for the clerics as their self buffs, except there are no stacking issues if everyone uses 9, kazad, and 7. Aside from being the better choice of raid buffs, it's also easier to keep everyone buffed with minimal fuss. The only time we MGB Virtue anymore is for bosses whose AEs overwrite 9.

Originally posted by xaanru
Friendly druid comes along, casts POTC on me, and REMOVES BOTH BAoTR and HB. Resulting in a net loss of ac and HP, and a net gain of NONE when it comes to mana regen.

Aego and BAoTR stack. Once I hit 60, you bet I will use BoA/BAoTR rather than PoTC. In fact I'll be thrilled that any passing druid who MGBs PoTG can't wipe two of my buffs off for ONE inferior buff.

Once again.. druid hp/mana regen buff + focus + symbol > cleric hp buff + cleric mana regen buff. At least in raids, I think you might be talking about your buffs for just xp grinding?

Originally posted by Mystrice
From lookin at Zereh's equations there I would like to know who casts Zealot, that's going to be the combo I next ask for when I log on.

Armor of the Zealot is a level 65 cleric self-only hp/regen buff, Mystrice.

[Grimina]

Yeah, completely different for raids where you will have druids/shaman/clerics there for buffing. In an exp group even if you DO have those 3 classes, I bet they aren't gonna be willing to spend all that mana casting seperate buffs on every person, every hour and a half. I know *I* won't. Groups want absolutely no downtime, if I have to cast a ton of buffs I WILL need downtime. With 1 blast of Aego I have no downtime, and have 3 hours in which I don't have to rebuff and spend a TON less on peridots.

[Axterix EnObelix]

Originally posted by Mystrice
From lookin at Zereh's equations there I would like to know who casts Zealot, that's going to be the combo I next ask for when I log on.

Yup, Zealot is a cleric only self buff. So you won't be getting it unless you can cast it yourself.

In an exp group even if you DO have those 3 classes, I bet they aren't gonna be willing to spend all that mana casting seperate buffs on every person, every hour and a half. I know *I* won't. Groups want absolutely no downtime, if I have to cast a ton of buffs I WILL need downtime. With 1 blast of Aego I have no downtime, and have 3 hours in which I don't have to rebuff and spend a TON less on peridots.

In an xp group you will, at least somewhat. Pot9 for your casters means 8 more mana regen. That means more mobs killed, more xp. Additionally, depending on who you group with, maximizing the tank and enchanter hps is frequently a great boon to their survival. Get the group Kazad if you must, but you will be using it.

With my cleric, I use a mix. She keeps up Virtue + BAotR on herself, pretty much. It's easy, it's convenient, and it takes up less dots. She doesn't need the additional bit of mana regen or hp. However, my enchanter will have 9 if it's available. And then I'll drop a symbol on him. The extra 8 mana regen helps a lot, reducing downtime and/or allowing me to contribute a lot more offensively.

[Lilosh]

As a druid and a chanter, I would MUCH rather go with G/9 , if it's available.

Everyone in the group with even a tiny bit of mana, save for the cleric (in some cases even them) is better off with Pot9/Symbol then with Virtue.


-Lilosh