Why would you...

[Rewde]

I know that there are several threads on this/similar topics, but here is one more /sigh

When I was first shown EQ about a year ago, my friend was showing me all the neat qualities of doing tradeskills and selling the finished products in the bazaar. There are a few factors that come into play here... cost of goods, cost to produce, supply and demand, possibly others, but no need to touch on them at this time.

I got into the game about a month ago, and decided that baking was the route I really wanted to go (I love to bake in RL and make a cheesecake that is to die for )

Ok, now most of the things to make in baking can be vendor bought at reasonable prices. Some recipies require foraged goodies, which are not that hard to come by for us foragers and should not be charged an arm and a leg for in the bazaar, but they do it anyway. Some recipies require you to hunt down and kill xyz mob to get their meat or parts, and depending on the risk/reward, should be priced accordingly in the bazaar (for those of you that do vendor diving, you know how exorbitant the prices in the bazaar really are).

Now, when I was first showed the game, MTPs were going for 50pp each on the server I am on. These require a little of all 3 types of items, plus some skill in brewing, smithing, tailoring and pottery. It takes time to get those skills to the point where you can make the things needed fro the final product combine, unless you are buying pre-fab items in the bazaar.

So this is a product that does take time and skill to make, and should be priced accordingly. But now, they are going for 10-15pp each.

Justice fruit are going for 44pp each. The pies are going for 50pp, though I have neither sold any, or seen any being sold. This requires a foraged item, not an uncommon forage from what my friend tells me, 2 celestial essences, which would be about 3pp to make and a couple other small items that are bought/made. The profit margin on this is you have to buy the fruit is very low if you can sell your items. If you are foraging your own fruit, then you have a high profit, if you can sell your items.

The 2 items are very similar in stats, one being for casters, one being for hybrids like rangers.

The success rate for MTPs at a skill of 250 is around 46% from what I have read. Currently at my skill of 223 my success rate for the JFP has been about 76%.

Now why wouldn't you, knowing all of this, keep the price on the one with the lower success rate at a higher price? Yes, people skill up on them as they can easily get most of the compnents in the bazaar, and then just dump them for a low cost so they can keep going with their skilling.

It is similar with other items, and tradeskills as well. The cost of the materials far exceeds the cost of the finished goods. If you are just using the products to skill up on, whether it be MTPs for baking or studded acrylia masks for tailoring, why not just dump the product off on to a npc vendor instead of ruining the markets. I mean, it costs about 200pp to buy the stuff to make 1 mask in the bazaar, yet people are turning around and selling the finished product for 5 -15pp :shock:

I know I do this for fun, but, /sigh, sometimes, this just seems very frustrating to want to do more than what I am doing now.


p.s. if you think this belongs in PSR, feel free to move it.

[Hobbun]

I do see your point Rewde, but for the example of Justice Fruit pie compared to Misty Thicket Picnics, the reason why MTP's are lower in price is the components are much easier to get. Justice Fruit Pies require Justice Fruit, which can only be found on the high level zone of Plane of Justice.

For high level characters, it isn't as much as a problem, but anyone below 55, that is certainly a problem. But I do see your point about overpriced components in the bazaar.

Hobbun

[Idara]

Also, the justice fruits aren't the common forage there. I forage probably 1 in every 20 attempts and my foraging is at 200. That's fine if you're actually grouped there, but there aren't a whole lot of places TO group in PoJ so it's not terribly easy to get a group there.

MTP's sell for less than I feel they should, considering all the effort involved in making them. However, everything except the brownie parts, fruit, eggs, and vegetables are vendor sold. Fruit and vegetables can usually be bought in bazaar very cheaply and eggs are not at all difficult to come by. I can go kill one cycle of brownies in LFay, make a quick run to Bazaar and buy fruit and veggies (and eggs if I don't have them, although I usually do), then grab all the vendor ingredients for the picnics and sit down with 100 picnic baskets and come up with at least 200 picnics to sell in bazaar. To get that many Justice Fruit Pies to sell I'd have to spend days foraging in PoJ to get enough justice fruit.

[bearcaller]

Another reason is due to the fact the justice fruit pies are also a component for the uberest food of all. In order to make one Bristlebane's party platter it takes two Justice FP's. People are just trying to capitalize on what is currently the hottest thing around. Depending on your server, the reason why you aren't seeing them move at all is that few guilds can reach POwater where the rare component of the BPP is found and fewer still are willing to part with said component. So you see people stockpiling JFP's in anticipation of the coming demand.

[Rewde]

Bristlebanes Party Platter - trivial >250; yield 2; NO DROP, miraculous meal, STR 10, DEX 10, STA 10, WIS 10, INT 10, AGI 10, HP 100, mana 100, wt 8.5, giant, all/all. Used in Aid Grimel quest.

Anybody that will be making this will, and should, already be able to make the Justice fruit pies. As it is NO DROP, well, it would be pointless to not GM baking just so you could have it.

I was just trying to use the 2 as examples to point out that when it comes to certain player made things, the rules of economics are thrown out the window.

[Tinile]

The reason MTPs have gotten so cheap is simply that there are too many of them. Bazaar has been flooded with them since PotC was introduced. For many people they are the easiest food to skill up on. Too many MTPs = lower selling price. I am currently working on baking myself, up to 222! and I am really trying to avoid doing MTPs. My guild and I exp in the non elemental zones and many guildies give me their meats. With that and buying meats in bazaar I managed to get from about 205, when I got disgusted with HMPs. It takes a bit longer this way, and I probably will spend a lot of money upfront, but so far, most finished foods are selling fairly well. Hero sammys always go fast!

[kiztent]

Anybody that will be making this will, and should, already be able to make the Justice fruit pies. As it is NO DROP, well, it would be pointless to not GM baking just so you could have it.

Well... yes and no. If you hunt exclusively in the elemental planes, you won't ever forage in PoJ - assuming you can forage in PoJ. In that case, it may be worth your time to buy a JFP (and poppers).

The party platter is also the final turn in for this item:

Signet of the Arcane
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: EAR
AC: 25
STR: +25 DEX: +25 STA: +25 WIS: +25 INT: +25 AGI: +25 HP: +130 MANA: +150
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Effect: Flowing Thought III (Worn)
Focus: Preservation of Xegony
WT: 1.5 Size: TINY
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

Now, that's not a huge upgrade from:
Earring of Embedded Coral
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: EAR
AC: 20
STR: +20 STA: +15 WIS: +20 INT: +20 HP: +150 MANA: +150
SV FIRE: +25 SV POISON: +25
Required level of 65.
Focus: Eterninostrum
WT: 0.8 Size: TINY
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

or
Earring of Eternal Flame
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: EAR
AC: 20
STR: +20 DEX: +25 STA: +25 CHA: +20 INT: +25 HP: +140 MANA: +155
SV FIRE: +8 SV DISEASE: +8 SV COLD: +35 SV MAGIC: +8 SV POISON: +8
Required level of 65.
Focus: Blaze of the Lightbringer
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: ALL

So don't be deceived by the raw numbers, the signet is nice, but not a huge upgrade to people that can get it.

Anyway...

The price of JFP is higher than MTP for several reasons:
1 - JFP has lower yield per forage attempt and requires foraging in a specific zone
2 - JFP is for a specific quest with a high reward.

I was just trying to use the 2 as examples to point out that when it comes to certain player made things, the rules of economics are thrown out the window.

The rules of economics still apply. There are other factors you are not taking into consideration.

Try comparing the price of a jade chokidai prod to other items with the same wisdom on them.

Or try comparing prices on these 2 items:

Jade Reaver
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 2H Slashing Atk Delay: 40
DMG: 23 Dmg Bonus: 42
WT: 12.0 Size: LARGE
Class: WAR PAL RNG SHD
Race: ALL

- and -

Weighty Polearm
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 2H Slashing Atk Delay: 34
DMG: 29 Dmg Bonus: 38 AC: 15
AGI: +15 HP: +35
SV FIRE: +10
Recommended level of 50.
WT: 9.5 Size: LARGE
Class: WAR PAL RNG SHD
Race: ALL

one sells for 100pp and one sells for 10kpp. I bet it's not the one you think either.

As for ruining markets....

You calling the market ruined the same as the American car makers in the 70s complaining how the Japenese were ruining their markets. Yeah, they were. By selling better goods, cheaper. TANSTAAFL.

The people who are 'ruining' the markets are making more money selling the stuff at a higher price than they can get from merchants. Basic economics at work. If supply increases (as it inherently does for items that people skill up on) and demand stays constant, price shoots down. They make more profit than they would selling to vendors, unfortunately, it cuts your previously safe margins. If you buy anything in the bazaar, you benefit from the same effect, in reverse since you are buying. I'm sure you're sick to death of "OMG I wore banded at level 50 and walked uphill both ways to the forge to make it" but deflation is everywhere in EQ.

Or, in the immortal words of the sicilian, "NEVER expect a profit when a skill up item is on the trader."

[Cravin]

I have a pocket druid that I use to forage when I feel he isnt being usefull for raids and when I dont feel like 2 boxing. I had him in POJ at the zone for 2 days hitting forage every time it popped. now after 2 full days of forageing I ended up with about 100 Justice fruits. In he same 2 days time I could get enough Ingrediants to make 2K MTPs. So while the stats may be close and the JFPs might be easier and a higher yeild you can make MTPs alot easier.

[Rewde]

Yeah, I know, the Jade reaver is the more expensive one as it's hard to get, AND is used for the druid epic.

Again, the baking was a bad example. I should have stuck with the tailoring, specifically, the studded acrylia.

A mask on my server goes for around 5-50pp depending on the time of day. IF you are farming your components, your cost is your time, the tannin, pattern, and water for smithing. At 5-10pp, you are making a profit. IF you are buying the items in the bazaar to do your skilling on, you are paying 100- 200pp per hide, then 20-50pp per piece of acrylia. So you are spending approximately 220 - 500pp per combine, and then you turn around and sell it for 50pp, losing 170-450pp. If you did that in real life, you would go bankrupt real quick.

Granted, if you are one of those people that have tons of plat to throw around, and want to raise your skills, you probably don't care too much about recouping your costs, as you can make up for it by going to Ab zone and killing xyz mob to get some phat lewt to sell, or large amounts of plat dropped from that mob. But, by engaging in these kinds of practices, you only encourage it, and make it harder for other people just struggling along.

Though, not the exact words of the Scicilian, you are correct. But, like the thinking in another thread, is it really a moral thing to do to try to make profits off the backs of your fellow tradeskillers? I can see Pharmers doing it, but then some skillers are also Pharmers, so who is to say what is right.

[Tinile]

Regarding the acrylia tailoring, it is the same concept. Masks are the most popular skill up route for tailors at that level. This creates huge supplies of these masks. Most players make masks exclusively because it only requires one stud, whereas the other pieces require more. Players skilling up this way are not trying to profit (ones that buy components). They have enough money in the bank and they are willing to lose that much money for skill ups. They figure they can spend their time exping/farming for more money then the costs of the acrylia. Acrylia is a major PITA to farm. It takes a very long time to get enough of it. I can farm a money spot and make more money to spend on acrylia pieces then I can get from farming acrylia. That is why it is that way.

[kiztent]

A mask on my server goes for around 5-50pp depending on the time of day. IF you are farming your components, your cost is your time, the tannin, pattern, and water for smithing. At 5-10pp, you are making a profit. IF you are buying the items in the bazaar to do your skilling on, you are paying 100- 200pp per hide, then 20-50pp per piece of acrylia. So you are spending approximately 220 - 500pp per combine, and then you turn around and sell it for 50pp, losing 170-450pp. If you did that in real life, you would go bankrupt real quick.

Capital Investment, good sir! I am investing my plat in raising my skills. How many businesses do you know that understand that R&D is a money sink, but expect returns over time from the results of same - better returns than if they had not invested.

Anyway, if you sell the masks to a vendor, they sell for less than 5GP. By selling at 5PP you are getting TEN TIMES what you do from a vendor. wuwu~

You need to consider alternatives when considering market price. If I can sell for 5gp or 5pp, which will I choose? Sure, I'd like to go 50pp, but alas...

Now, consider the converse... What if you COULD make money from a skill up item? Why, everyone would skill up, and get rich! Then, once the number of 250s became high enough, EVERY item would become a commodity item and margins across the entire skill line would drop to nothing. Since the number of tradeskillers would be large, costs for finished items would drop to costs of components.

Granted, if you are one of those people that have tons of plat to throw around, and want to raise your skills, you probably don't care too much about recouping your costs, as you can make up for it by going to Ab zone and killing xyz mob to get some phat lewt to sell, or large amounts of plat dropped from that mob. But, by engaging in these kinds of practices, you only encourage it, and make it harder for other people just struggling along.

Quite true. It is, unfortunately the dirty little secret that most people don't want to face up to. There ARE people who have plat to throw around and not only that, they WILL throw it around. And the game must be designed with that in mind.

Though, not the exact words of the Scicilian, you are correct. But, like the thinking in another thread, is it really a moral thing to do to try to make profits off the backs of your fellow tradeskillers? I can see Pharmers doing it, but then some skillers are also Pharmers, so who is to say what is right.

I personally bury stuff I don't want remarketed. By bury I mean sell to a vendor that I know is full and their overstock is also full. So even if you mine the vendor, you will NEVER find what I resell. It vanishes into the ether. I admit last night I did resell some geerloks to an empty vendor, but I informed the tradeskill channel so they could get a crack at it first. Honestly, I have more geerloks banked then I can sell, and I didn't feel like running to a vendor I could bury them on. Sue me.

Certainly it would be nice if we lived in a world where tradeskillers conspired together to keep prices high ... but wait ... that's pricefixing! It's illegal! Can't win either way, can you.

[scarbrowed]

I have to comment on both examples of "ruined market". First off, selling MTP's at 10pp each actually made me more money than selling them at 25pp because they sold much faster. At 10pp each, I could do 100 combines, get over 200 combines, and sell them at a net profit of about 2kpp in less than oen weekend. All this for less than an hours work. I don't know any place my level 35 druid could make that much money.

Acrylia masks sell for so cheap because skillup people get tired of holding them all. But tunics and sleeves still sell for more than twice the bazaar price of ther components on Kane Bayle. (Somedays even more than that.) I think this works well. The skillup folks can dump their cheap masks, and the tailors who need money can sell a better item.

[Tinile]

the other pieces of acrylia sell at a loss on lanys (if you buy pelts and ore in bazaar), albeit less of a loss percentagewise.