Safe to camp?

[Rewde]

Last night I was running around in EK killing lions, gorge hounds, lion/lioness matriarchs, carrion spiders and the occasional dark blue/yellow crag spider. When I got too full of spider legs and ruined pelts I would go to the village to sell them, also chunks of meat. I never had a problem with any monsers while I was doing this.
So, I go to log out, and I figure that inside one of the buildings would be a safe place to do so. So I sit down and camp. I get up to take care of something thinking that everything would be fine. I come back and instead of seeing the connect screen I am standing up, almost dead, being attacked by a griffawn. I am in a house.. how the heck did that thing get in there, it is too big to fit through the door? So I start to run to the bridge. Well, I did not make it to the zone, just shy of it
So, now I sit nekid in Misty Thicket needing to find a way back to EK to retrieve my corpse.

My question is; If the houses are not a safe place to log out in, where in EK would be a good place? The druid ring?

Thanks in advance.

[Iannyen]

Nexus is fairly safe.

Basically, if you aren't logged out, sit down and wait the 30 seconds it takes to log out properly. saves alot of possible heartache later.

[Kentarre]

I usually camp at zone lines... The bridge at NK/EK would be my choice in there. I have to be a bit more parinoid being on a PvP server, but still camping at the zone lines is about as safe as you can get. You could head to Nexus or PoK but thats too much traveling for me!

And yeah, you would figure the houses would be safe, but they might as well not be there for as much as the monsters heed them. I always hated that the most in the EC/WC zones - seemed like something was always coming through the walls to beat on me...

[Delfontes]

Yeah, what Kentarre said, go to the bridge.

Nothing paths to it in the zone... but take the extra 30 seconds to ensure you actually get camped.

Buildings in most zones don't really exist, they can see into them and will agro through the walls, they will also run right through them to chase you. I assume it was 1 of 2 things, either the developers were lazy, or they didn't want people to be able to run in a building and shut the door to be safe.

The saddest deaths are those that can be avoided .

Hope you know the way through Runnyeye/HHP, as it is a bit of a danger at your level still.

[cattywumpus]

I personally don't recomend the bridge. Nothing paths there but it does get trained quite a bit when someone gets overzealous on a pull. I still owe Broon a poke in the chops :evil: .

I tend to camp a little way south of the bridge beside the river. I have set there and fished for hours without aggroing anything so it's pretty safe and you are out of the way of most trains too.

[Farnyr]

Everyone remembers the day when they learned houses/huts arent safe places to sit. Mine was in EC with a griffon. "A building! Ill be safe in there!"

If i remember right, the reason they arent safe places is because they arent part of the actual zone geography. They are like trees and placed after the zone is created, and how often to we see things path through/over trees instead of going around?

As for the bridge, bad idea! I once sat my druid who was around 44 at the time on the bridge, and went AFK to eat. I thought "Bah, the only things in the zone that could kill me are a griffon or a hill giant, and what are the odds!"....Darn good! I came back and found myself at my bind point. Turns out someone got Broon/Droon/Froon...I dont remember which one, the daddy one though, to spawn and he got me.

The best place I can think of to camp would actually be down by the barbarian fishing village, near the docks and the water fall. Just sit down there on the riverbanks and watch until youve hit the "5 seconds.." message. You should be fine then.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

The explanation I heard was similar - the buildings aren't part of the zone geometry, so mobs ignore them for movement. This isn't just "laziness" though, its to prevent inumerable exploits. Think how many things you could do if you could aggro a mob, run into a building, and then attack it while it was unable to respond? (arrows, spells, etc)

The first time you find out about the not-so-solid buildings is always nasty ... I tried to run into a hut in BBM when being chased by a "huge" ogre, Cornflunk ... couldn't fit through the door, so he just came through the wall and killed me, heh.

[KyrosKrane]

The problem is that mobs also sometimes ignore the zone geometry too.

I was in Sol B the other day, checking to see if Nagafen was up. I'm level 52, and I was with a 60+ monk and cleric. We fight our way up to the ramp room and clear it of the spiders and whatnot, then we climb the ramp to the fire giants. The monk goes ahead to take a look and says it would be difficult to split the giants. I offer to pacify them to make the split easier, and he agrees.

I back up to the end of the tunnel, which is about max range for the spell. It's not line of sight, so I don't have to worry about seeing the giants. The tunnel is about as tall as I am; I found out later that it fits the giants' leg from foot to hip, and that's it. I figure even if things go wrong, the giants can't make it out of their area. The monk is at the intersection of the ramp tunnel and the giants area, feigned.

I cast Pacify, and as luck would have it, it got resisted. Five seconds later, the giants come THROUGH the tunnel (which should be actual zone geometry, not add-ons like trees) and start pounding on me. The top half of the giants is in la-la-land poking out the top of the tunnel -- it should have been physically impossible for the giants to get through there. Yet they did, and they chased me clear out to the ramp room. Long story short, the monk was able to feign and eventually drag our corpses to zone.

If the objective was to prevent exploits, there are better ways of doing it. Make all walls solid; nothing goes through them, not spells, not arrows, not mobs. Right now, they're an artificial restriction on how players can move about, and that's it. If players take advantage of the wall rules to affect a mob they can't see (as FOH did, pulling a mob in the Plane of Time through a wall), it's considered an exploit. Yet if that same mob aggroes on you through the wall and kills you, that's considered fair play. Huh?

Sorry, but I don't buy that.

[Lothay]

Actually, most geometry issues aren't about solving exploits. Mobs who can summon players and who teleport to their targets were changes implemented to curb some exploits. But walls and roofs have always been transparent.

They're about art/design problems and processor loads. The 3D engine in EQ is getting a little frayed around the edges, and some of its weaknesses are showing. But were all object to be solid, mapped objects, EQ probably would not have been released.
<ul>
<li>Servers would have to work MUCH harder to track mobs &amp; players, limiting the number of people who could play on each server.
<li>Zones would have taken much longer to design/draw/test, limiting the number of things you would see in them.
</ul>
While it makes for some annoying experiences, I'd rahter have 1,500 people online per server than 12-20, and content that gets published more than once every 2 years.

~Lothay

[Dunthor Warsmith]

KyrosKane's bit & Loth's response reminds me of something I read a long time ago. A player was asking why PCs can't move through mobs or PCs, but NPCs can move through each other and players. The answer at the time was processor load and AI coding - it would simply be too hard to code, and too processor intensive to execute, NPC pathing AI that would take into account mobile objects such as players and other mobs. Annoying reason, but one I'll accept.

The thing I find odd though, is that in non-combat situations, occasionally a npc *can* get stuck on a player, briefly, before warping/pathing around them ... I'm curious if that's just lag (client side predicting that the mob gets stuck whereas serverside it actually just walks through, and so when you get the next update it corrects the location, warping) or if there are slightly different rules for automatic patrols and chasing/combat.

But your narrow tunnel is exactly like the hut, potential exploit wise. Aggro the giant, run into the narrow tunnel. Its pounding on the wall trying to futily get to you, while you, with clear line of sight to its feet, fire arrows and spells at its toes and legs. One dead giant, and zero risk beyond the pull.
Hell, if you wanted to get really technical, you could go up and melee its feet, since it shouldn't be able to get its arms down there due to the wall :P

More random memories: EQ had two zone building applications originally - outdoors and indoors. The outdoors was developed first, and in all zones created with it mobs ignored zone geometry for most things (most aggro, movement, etc) which is largely appropriate for a truly outdoor zone (they also used it to do a few dungeons before the indoor editor was ready, which caused some famous problems in dungoens which I forget now :/ ). The indoor editor created zones where the walls were more "solid" ... I know theoretically mobs wouldn't aggro through the walls, but I don't remember anything said about pathing (probably would have to be able to path through geometry for exploit reasons). A number of indoor aggro/pathing issues were blamed on using the outdoor editor for the indoor zone (since the indoor editor hadn't been completed yet). I never really understood why it took a completely different app, rather than just a zone flag or a face property, to differentiate between solid and not ... but that's just me. I imagine all this has since changed for developing newer content, but since we're dealing with old zones, probably still has the old reasons.

Just my ramblings,
Dunthor

[Minta Rose]

Would those maybe have been outdoors-class dungeons like. . .

Mistmoore, Cazic-Thule? Blackburrow, Crushbone?

[Delfontes]

But your narrow tunnel is exactly like the hut, potential exploit wise. Aggro the giant, run into the narrow tunnel. Its pounding on the wall trying to futily get to you, while you, with clear line of sight to its feet, fire arrows and spells at its toes and legs. One dead giant, and zero risk beyond the pull.

Am I the only one who thinks better AI and not "warping" is what is needed in cases like this?

If said giant can't get in the tunnel, why doesn't it "know" that, and hide behind the wall so you have to come out and see it? Then it in theory can block you from going back in your safe little tunnel, while pommeling you.

If you are running from a small animal into a house and close the door, maybe it should save you, it is a house after all. A larger animal may be able to break down the door, and an Orc may just be able to figure out how to open it, but they should have to use the door to get to you.

Some of the most annoying things are when a mob warps because it was blocked by zone geometry, in todays (and 1999) geometry there were/are games that the mobs know how to go around things. In EQ every mob takes the most direct path (except where pathing problems still exist). Any monk who has stood to check agro and had 3 mobs Warp on them knows that EQ has some major problems in that dept.

I'm just hoping they've learned from their mistakes. If I encounter a large rat in EQ2 that chases me through the wall into a house, I'm definately going to try WoW.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

Ya, but being smart is so much harder than bending the laws of physics :P

[Aandaie]

The mob AI in EQ is not very advanced. To get around possible exploits, they made it so the mob ignores structures and height. So a player can't get in a building, open the door and cast on a griffon shoving itself against a house who can't reach the player. The player also can't get way up on a hill or levitate up in the air and shoot a bow or cast on some mob on the ground. Doing so would make getting great xp too easy, with no risk.

From time to time a few areas have still allowed such exploits to work, eventually they are fixed. Some people were banned back in the beta for abusing such advantages.

There is no safe place in EK to log out. Your best bet, though, would be a place that a creature does not normally path such as on that big hill behind those bandit camps. Going to shore by the water is usually pretty safe also, mobs don't path near there (just make sure you are not by where broon normally spawns) Bridges are usually safe, but someone also might be training.

Essentially your mistake was in starting to log out, then leaving the keyboard. When you go to log out, if you are in a zone with stuff that will attack you, wait for your character to actually camp instead of assuming that it will camp ok. Don't do that in hostile zones, in fact, get used to not doing it at all. You've been playing for hours, you can certainly wait 30 more seconds. Don't think that by successfully hiding or casting invis you can leave the keyboard and camp either, I've made that mistake

Even a level 60 character will eventually die being attacked by a griffawn because you thought you could just leave after hitting camp, it is rather embarrassing the first time it happens to you

[Morani]

Rewde, another safe place to camp is ANY zone edge (usually); not just the part you can travel between zones. Typically, when I camp in a zone without a true safe spot, I head to the nearest zone wall and get as close as I can. In a lot of zones, there is a hill or mountain at the edge that you can't climb any farther up on that marks that zone's boundary. 99% of the time, this is far out of any pathing the mobs might take and the chances of someone training into a dead end is slim.

Another piece of advice that I discovered "growing up" in Greater Faydark: when running for your life, trees are your FRIEND! When running past a tree, turn a little bit so the mob chasing you has to run into it. It won't stop it, but the mob has to go up and over it; this means it travels more distance than you do. You'll end up putting that essential bit of distance between you and it that keeps you from getting hit and slowed down a LOT quicker.