Cetacean Intelligence

[Quinner Sparrowhawk]

I was assisting one of my students on researching Whales and Dolphins and was appalled at the arogance of some researchers out there. One such inDUHvidual insisted that the aggressive behavior of Orcas (Killer Whales) and some dolphins indicate that they are not intelligent. Hello, what about all of the attrocities we humans inflict upon each other? Just because cetacean brains do not work like ours is not proof that they are "dumb floating pigs" as some whale hunting groups would like everyone to believe.

I'm not a tree-hugger but whale hunting is something I view as uneccessary. Fortunately, we have not done enough damage in the ocean to kill off all of the natural predators as we have done on land. Deer herds may need hunters but whales do not.

[Delfontes]

How do you get good perfume without killing a few whales anyhow?

Ever see the Far Side comic with the Dolphins speaking spanish, and scientists unable to understand them? Classic, and it does show a bit about which is the smarter species.

[Twofury]

Dolphins, besides humans, are the only creature to have sex for fun: this shows their intelligent. :arrow:

This also means all species closely related to them, aka all marine mammals, are intelligent.

[Phabos]

Dolphins, besides humans, are the only creature to have sex for fun: this shows their intelligent

Not necessarily...

Look around at some of the people you meet on a daily basis.

That right there should tell you that stupid people have sex for fun, and unfortunately, many of them reproduce...

Phabos
Drunken Paladin of Brell
Tarew Marr

[lonewylfe]

Hey Quinner, did you see the colossal squid?!
Maybe it came to the surface to find easy induhvidual food servings

[Heartsong_Steelsoul]

Urban Legend post on subject of Dolphins and Sex

[Quinner Sparrowhawk]

Hey Quinner, did you see the colossal squid?!
Maybe it came to the surface to find easy induhvidual food servings

I got a few in my classroom it could have! I'm sure Lilosh would like to send a colossal squid-o-gram through the phone lines to some customers too.

[Aandaie]

I think that dolphins, whales and orcas are MORE often thought of as being overly smart as opposed to "dumb pigs."

We seem to err more on the side of calling some creature smart as opposed to calling it stupid. When you really look at dolphins, they just don't seem that bright. I'd not call anything that you can train like a dog that bright. They seem smart for an animal, but that doesn't really make them "smart." A gorilla seems brighter in many ways, its just not going to jump through a hoop for me so its much harder to quantify how smart it is.

It really makes no difference to me. I don't think we have to attach "good" attributes to a dolphin, like being smart, in order for people to not want to catch them in tuna nets. Even if they are dumb as a board you should still not want to do that, there are just not that many of them and its somewhat sad.

Man has a tendancy to have to say that any creature he can interact with is "smart." I've never thought a dog was particularly bright, but I like them and wish them no harm. Part of the problem is some things people think might be "smart" are just natural; I could not discern the noise of my mate's car in the sounds of traffic two blocks away, yet a dog can with the car of its master (this is why dogs do that spooky thing where they go up on the couch barking and wagging their tail 7 minutes before the car pulls in the driveway.) Its not just that they have great hearing, its something more about sensitivity to sounds. Does it make them "smart" though? I'm not sure, but it certainly makes them "different" and enjoyable to have around.

Why would dolphins be smart if they have sex for pleasure anyway? That just shows they like to have sex. Once again, its saying that something indicates intelligence simply because its something that we do. It has nothing to do with being smart, your most deficient humans still have sex for pleasure.

[Moonlilly]

The whole problem is people based their conceptions of intelligence from the human model. Who are we to say what does or doesn't denote intelligence?

For example if we dropped the average dog and the average man in the middle of a forest. The first things both animals will deal with are the lack of their basic needs (aka Food and water). Now the majority of people will say the human will look for food and water because he knows he will starve if none is found. But why does the dog? Most people will throw out the instinct argument, but do we truly know what goes on in the dogs mind?

Take a look at what Aandaie said:

Part of the problem is some things people think might be "smart" are just natural; I could not discern the noise of my mate's car in the sounds of traffic two blocks away, yet a dog can with the car of its master (this is why dogs do that spooky thing where they go up on the couch barking and wagging their tail 7 minutes before the car pulls in the driveway.) It’s not just that they have great hearing, its something more about sensitivity to sounds.

If we assume everything in the above statement to be true than we come away with a few facts. 1. Dogs have good hearing. 2. Dogs can distinguish one motor vehicle from another using said hearing. 3. (Here is the kicker) they go up on the couch barking and wagging their tail 7 minutes before the car pulls in the driveway. Why do they do that? Perhaps they are actively thinking about the master coming home and they get to eat/play/whatever. Wouldn't this be intelligence?

Now what about plants? Do they think? Take the Venus Fly Trap. Normally this plant has its "jaws" open and when something brushes the "sensors" on the inside it will close its "mouth" and viola! Breakfast.
How do we know that the plant doesn't think, "Something just brushed me! Time to eat!"

So just because something cannot express its intelligence in a format that humans can understand, that doesn't mean it's lacking in that quality. So the next time you pick an apple from a tree and bite into it, ask yourself, "What is the apple thinking?”

[lonewylfe]

So the next time you pick an apple from a tree and bite into it, ask yourself, "What is the apple thinking?”

I don't think I'll ever eat again now

And I don't know about dropping people in the middle of forests, most of the "average man" people I see have the survival skills of a frost ball taking a vacation in Florida in July.

[Gargazon]

Dolphins and whales have a language, are social, and can solve complex problems. I don't think it is arguable that they are intelligent, but after that it becomes a question of how intelligent?

We know, for example, that chimps can be taught to use sign language, and can actually communicate via sign language. They can do this because they have hands like ours. Dolphins/whales do not, so it becomes a bit more problematic.

Also, as far as the venus fly trap possing intelligence, I think you are confusing intelligence and auto response.

In all cases it is important to understand that the intelligence we are refering to is based on ours. This is because we are what we know. There are many cases where animals surpass us, just based on built in "features". But that doesn't mean they are intelligent in the human sense of the word.

Last but not least, I wanted to comment on man and dog getting dropped into the wilderness. If that happened to me personally, I'm gonna stick with that dog, because lets face it, there are things he can do that I can't. His sense of smell for example could be invaluable.Besides, if you can't find another single thing to eat, you have a walking dinner right there.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

One of the issues is differentiating between physical abilities and mental abilities. The fact that a dog has a superior sense of smell and olfactory processors does not make it intelligent, and likewise a dolphin's lack of opposable thumbs does not make it unintelligent. Its what they do with those physical abilities that matters, imo.

Its also a question of what are instincts, conditioned responses, and learned knowledge, and how does one differentiate?
If you can stand on the blue pad or the red pad (only), and if you stand on the red pad you get a jolt of pain, most creatures will learn to stand on the blue pad. You can extend this to much more complex conditioned responses. But to me, that is not a measure of intelligence beyond very low levels. So its the question of where does conditioned responses end and learned knowledge start?

I personally usually draw that line around extrapolating from previous experience to apply to new situations (this includes, to some degree, self-awareness). The chimp (not sure of the proper name) dynamically using sign language to express new ideas, or new combinations of ideas. The dolphin, once exposed to the concept of a mirror, using a mirror to study an object placed on a (unviewable without a mirror) part of the body. Those are two experiments I know of. There are undoubtable more, and better ones.

I personally wonder about the intelligence of dogs. While I personally believe in the intelligence of dolphins and chimps, I'm not sure on dogs. Most of the things they are trained for to me seem like highly end conditioned responses, and I'm not sure if they truly cross over into intelligence.

Anyhow, just my thoughts.

[Lothay]

Someone becomes intelligent the moment they are aware, and are aware of that awareness.

A dog is aware of what is going on. But he isn't capable of inspecting that awareness, examining it, and making conclusions based on it. A human can, and so can dolphins, and a fair number of apes.

~Lothay