EQTC Moderation.

[Andric d'Regor]

I feel sorry for Ngreth and Verdandi. Here they are, trying to have a calm discussion about moderation (and it was actually going fairly well) and then two posters wreck it all by starting with the personal attacks and breaking out the strawmen & flames.

Ah well, thread lock inc.

targetting den Mom is outta order and distressing - and likely done so this thread is locked and so I hope your (and probably this) post gets deleted to preserve the thread. Its actions like this that add undue stress to teh people trying to provide a service that they provide basically out of the goodness of their hearts and then folks like you and others come along and worry them away till they leave.

[jeger]

I'm deeply saddened by the turn of events. I feel personally confused and upset as if 2 of my family members had a serious falling out which of course had repercussions and further divided the family I care about.

I don't post here all that often (though I do read the boards regularly).. and I am very active on the serverwide channel (as Jeger/Nissen)... I respect the people who made EQTC happen.. as well as the mods... and I also love and respect our quirky little band of misfits in channel...

I don't have very much to add to the discussion, apart from adding that in my experience... when tempers and feelings get so hurt, for so long.. the only possible positive course of action is to _take a break_ and _CONTINUE_ the discussion when the people involved are calmer and more able to hear one another.

I love Noish dearly as a friend... and I truly respect the people who've shown solidarity with him by requesting their posting priveledges be revoked (at least temporarily)... however, I don't see it as constructive in the long run because it's just depriving the community of vitality and constructive discussion. I pray that all involved will take a time out, get your collective breath back, and come back to the table to work things out.

It's so very easy to take things somewhat out of context and to see them as worded more strongly than perhaps they were... the hurts build up, stresses add up and soon you have a pressure-cooker time bomb ready to explode. I beg all of you to take a step back... take 24 hours to think... and try to reach deep deep inside yourselves and begin healing this schism...

It's truly apparent to me that ALL of us care about the game we've spent so much of our lives playing together... I would ask you all to indulge me for a moment... Take a piece of paper and write down the FIRST 10 names that come to your mind when you think of EQ tradeskills... At least for me they were the people most central to this discussion...and like every deeply impassioned argument... nobody is RIGHT.

Ngreth, Niami, Verdandi, Noishpa, Phabos, Nibben, Tinkbang, Tenrin, Kiz and Archedgar (d*mn him!!) are the 10 that pop into my head straightaway. (If I were cheating, I'd've left the troll off the list). My point is... there are definitely people I can almost be guaranteed of disagreeing with.. people who make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up unpleasantly... But I believe that pretty much everyone has something to bring to the discussion... (even if it's just to argue that australia's not a continent (you channel dwellers will remember this conversation )


I love you all... I wish this hadn't devolved into ad hominem attacks... I wish a lot of things, and I really hope that you will all take a break and come back into the discussion. I don't want to have to choose between the channel community and the message board community.. but if I had to.. my choice would be clear.

I'll see you guys in channel *hugs*

Annie (Jeger/Nissen)

[Itzena]

targetting den Mom is outta order and distressing - and likely done so this thread is locked and so I hope your (and probably this) post gets deleted to preserve the thread.

Deleted it myself, and sorry for posting it in the first place.

Bye for a bit.

[Thorvari]

I would just like to point out that Denmom didn't BAN Lilosh, just told him that he would no longer have the extra freedom that he seemed to be reveling in. I have not seen Lilosh post that he is never coming back, just that he has said that he needs to take some time and think about what has been said.

One side effect of having all moderation discussions taken to PMs is that they are invisible to the populace, therefore it is hard for the populace to learn from the mistakes of others. In this case, someone (who by his own admission) is one of the worst offenders requiring moderation has been brought up short. I think Inyidd's assessment of righteous indignation is on point, especially given the amount of work that Denmom and others have put in to this site and community.

I think people need to let this cool off, and not do things in the heat of the moment that they may regret later.

[Melinia]

I've been visiting this site for at least 2 years now and found both the site and boards so helpful. the community of EQtraders as a whole has been pretty fanaminal (sp?). the Staff of EQtraders has been amazing.

I've been skimming thru this discussion to get the gists of it. I'm pretty shocked that people seem to think that these boards are over moderated or that the moderation is "pick and choose". I personally have never seen such a well moderated site. I hit these boards daily on my lunch and before I log into EQ. Maybe I'm missing something but every time I've seen a moderater take action it is for a Good reason. This site provides such a friendly and helpful atmosphere that other sites cant touch. This site/forum has a purpose and it sticks to it. To expect the staff to allow this site to move from that purpose is not considering the community as a whole.

Denmother & House Ogre: You have put together one of the best sites of any kind I've come acrossed on any topic. Your forums are the most unbiased, non-self serving, topic oriented, clean, & well managed forums around.

DON'T CHANGE!
I've visited sites for other games and other services and have come acrossed the worst, non-topic related, degrading, & insensitive posts to be found. It got to the point that this one of only 2 boards I go to (the other is for something non-EQ related). I re-iterrate:
DON'T CHANGE!

/emote Melinia gives Denmother a big bear hug.
If I could I would send you a cookie gram I would...

[Serenya]

I’ve not read the boards in over a week as I was on vacation. Having read this thread first after returning I’ve felt the need to digest it before attempting to post my own response. I feel compelled as a regular reader and semi-regular poster to respond, yet I’m not sure that I can do so sensibly.

Lilosh is one of my favorite posters. I enjoy his enthusiasm, his song parodies make me laugh, I wince in sympathy at his customer service rants (having heard similar tales from my husband who once was in CS for Compaq). Still, I am well aware that he is one poster whom you either love or hate, there is no middle ground with him. I am not surprised to read that more complaints are received about him then anyone else, I can only trust that notice has been paid as to whether the complaintants are unique or persistent (in other words, if 80% of those who complained this week were also 80% of those who complained last, I personally would feel compelled to give them lesser weight as they obviously simply don’t like his style). It pains me to think that several of the posters I most enjoy for their enthusiasm and banter may feel compelled to find a new home.

I greatly respect the time and energy that Niami and Ngreth put into this site, and I know the cost is not simply monetary. It is still in the end their sandbox, and it has expanded to dimensions they did not foresee and I suspect are not entirely comfortable with. It was intended to be a way to gather tradeskill information, and it has evolved into a community. Like all communities, some are more vocal then others, not all get along, and some stick around long past the time they cared for EQ or its tradeskills. As a result, it no longer just meets its ‘Prime Directive’ but instead also has secondary, sometimes conflicting, directives in the mind of its community members, (though not necessarily in the minds of its owners).

I don’t always agree with the moderation here, but it rarely makes me think that a mod completely overreacted, and never to the point of feeling the need to PM over it. Still, there are times I sortof go ‘huh?’. Everyone has their own pet peeves. Mine are foul language and dude speak. I don’t read the necro board despite my much loved necro alt because I can’t stand the language. I enjoy irony and sarcasm, and use both in my posts (as well as a tendency to poke fun at myself), yet I know that neither come across well in the written language when done by non-experts. As a result, I know that in the past I have given offense on other boards when someone failed to recognize what I meant, and I have seen the same thing happen here. I believe that certain posters are disliked because of their sarcastic and ironic bent, and I suspect that that posting style may be one of Niami’s pet peeves (if you didn’t grow up with it on a constant basis you probably don’t like it, I’m just used to it) I know it is a pet peeve of others.

Sanna poked fun in a postscript at her own tendency to derail threads, and it was seen by the mods as a veiled thread. I didn’t read it that way, I knew she was joking about herself, but I can see why others did. Ragging amongst the Marr Collective has on more then one occasion resulted in warnings or locked threads because others might misunderstand, or think that their ‘getting away with’ apparently ill-natured posts towards each other (albeit entirely in fun amongst dear friends) means that others can do the same in truth rather then in fun. I think locking them is an overreaction, yet again, I understand completely the reasoning, and can’t really argue with it either – this community is too large, if the line isn’t firmly drawn and maintained it is easy to go too far over for too long, resulting in a huge issue when the line is finally reaffirmed.

The overreaction to Niami’s losing her temper is because she is the house mother. Despite all evidence to the contrary, we persist in believing that our mothers, and therefore all cast into the ‘mother’ role, are perfect beings who never lose their temper. Even if we know full well that this is not true. As a result there is a tendency to over react and take it very personally when it happens, and the higher on the pedestal we have someone the more upset we are going to be when she stumbles. Worshipping the ground someone walks on very quickly flips when proof is given of human nature, and the younger one is, the more emotionally one is going to react. (No offense Sanna, as your youth and enthusiasm is a very large part of why I enjoy your posts, but it’s also why you are so very upset **hugs**)

Lilosh posted something to the effect that long time posters have indicated to him disenchantment with this board, and an inclination to stay away, due presumably to the moderation. I believe that he has been told this, and I believe that they even think that that is the reason. I would postulate however that perceived over-moderation is an easy excuse and not the true reason for this discontent. This board, like most other EQ community boards at the moment, is suffering from a general state of malaise. We have the normal summer slump compounded by the extreme age of the game coupled with an expansion that few people liked, and a Direct X 9 implementation that is still very buggy. As a result there is a considerable amount of gnashing of teeth, ill will, grumbling and so forth on all boards.

If you consistently leave off reading a board feeling unhappy and dissatisfied, you will tend to blame the board, and perhaps look for something to explain it. If a post was edited or a thread moved or locked and you didn’t agree with (or perhaps even know) the reason, it’s easy to assume that that is the reason for your discontent without looking further. I am a long time reader and I AM reading this board less of late. It’s not directly due to the board however – EQ is a bit frustrating at the moment, I’m a bit burnt out on tradeskills, the discussions tend to be either ‘in jokes’ or dead horses because there is little new to discover, Civ 3 was very consuming for a few weeks, work is driving me nuts….. all reasons to read this board and others less that have nothing to do with the board. Yet, if I didn’t stop to think about it, or was feeling a bit irritable, I could easily assume that it’s because the Marr Collective got slapped, or yet another random thread got moved, or my pet thread got closed…..

I do agree that it would be helpful when threads are closed or posts edited if we at least knew whom, and hopefully why. Different moderators react differently, no surprise – what one will warn another will close. Posts one will laugh at will elicit a scold from another. They are as human as we are, and yet we as posters tend sometimes to forget that. Perhaps it would be useful for the mods to compare notes in private to see if they agree with the each other’s decisions. And no, I don’t think that sort of thing should be made public, except in the most general ways.

For everyone, all I can say is ‘this too shall pass’. Go outside, enjoy the summer, take a break from that computer. Come back in a week or two or three when the game, the board, or life in general isn’t getting to you. (And yes, as someone who spent half her vacation playing CIV 3, I know this applies to me too ).


As to the question of whether or not long time posters should get away with more then newbies. Honestly, my personal opinion is that yes, they should. They have given to the community and are part of its structure, and as a result should be cut more slack. Still, this community is SO very large, that I don’t know how feasible that really is. It’s easy for me to say and do as the guildleader and board master for a guild of 15 people, most of whom know each other in real life. It’s much harder to handle when there are 300 or more long term members and hundreds more casual ones. And what do you do really? Every time they ‘get away with something’ do you say – ‘if you we didn’t know you you couldn’t say that’? That’s not really very manageable, yet, it’s true.

*hugs* to everyone

[Niami DenMother]

It always used to amaze me when folks would selectively read something and fixate on one point and totally ignore everything else. The number of questions we did and do get on things that are clearly written out in sticky topics, in other posts on the same page, etc. always boggled me.

I am no longer boggled by it, but rather resigned to it, especially after seeing some pretty strong examples of it in this thread.

I VERY clearly stated that we were listening to the issues on moderation and that we ARE looking into what we can do to address it. Some of you, however, are so busy fixating on the Lilosh thing, that you refuse to see this, parroting the cry of "straw man" from serverwide.eqtraders as your own brand of smokescreen. If you could see the discussion in the moderator's corner, you'd find that we are taking it quite seriously, and are working on the issue. We've left this thread, and the contents in it, pretty much alone with regards to moderation, but we ARE addressing our moderation style with regards to the rest of the site.

I can't control what you read, or interpret, just like I can't control the fact that some of you have decided to totally and utterly misread a recent interview of mine to be an insult. {boggle} Without naming names, without being nasty, I gave a perfect example of how things can get blown out of proportion in a community. It was not meant to be hurtful or insulting *to anyone*. I'm sorry if you took it that way, but again, I can't control selective reading.

As far as the Lilosh-thing, I knew I, and this site, were in a lose-lose situation, and I knew that I could either gradually lose control of this site, or I could finally attempt to do something about it.

One member of the community had always been given preferential treatment with regards to moderating. Perhaps that one member and their friends did not see it, but things that would have gotten others banned were turned into slaps on the wrist. This tended to be noticeable enough that there were significant complaints from members of the community on a regular basis (in the early days) but pretty much petered off as folks saw this as the new status quo. (They still came in, but far less frequently.)

Justification was given for this as "he means well" and "maybe with a bit of work, we can nudge him in the right direction", and so forth. My fault. I admit it freely. As mentioned in my post, I started this trend, and my mods continued it as I faded into the woodwork. It wasn't until recently that I started comparing notes with them, and realized exactly how often some of my mods were having to step in and nudge things back into line. When one poster is eating that much of their time and energy, there is an issue.

Attempts have been made in the past to address the situation, but apparently the attempts were too gentle. Bonks didn't work, PMs got apoligies, but a resumption of the same behavior in short order, and my mods probably had very bloody tongues from biting them so often. And members of the community, who didn't see all the reprimands, nor what brought them on, continued to cry favoritism.

Fast forward to this past weekend. The one person that we admit was given special consideration is the FIRST and way most voluble person to jump on the bandwagon, with strong words about how we're killing the community, how we're not communicating why certain actions are taken, etc. Then he proudly shows himself and his list of warnings, etc. as and example that we don't give preferential treatment.

Lose lose.

Stay silent and the many dozens of folks that complained about preferential treatment see that we're blithely ignoring the situation still. Stay silent and let the presumed "ownership" of the voice of the community not only continue to try to push and remold the community into what they want (something that many members made clear in PMs was unwelcome), but in doing so, reinforce that he has the "right" to claim that ... and give my volunteer staff even more headaches than they already have. Taking it to PMs was not an option. Once again, the community would not have seen what was going on behind closed doors with regards to moderation decisions, and once again, the community would hear only one side of the story. His. Additionally, it had been proven time and again, that such private reprimands have only a temporary effect ... and that public ones didn't get much better a response, though they'd been heard to be turned into things to brag about on the serverwide channel.

I knew speaking out would anger and upset folks, but I also knew that things HAD to be said and aired out.

It should not have been left so long. It should not have had to happen in the first place. But, when one member of the community speaks out that strongly with misinformation and basically bites the hand that protected them, it was time, at last, to defend MY rights, my site, and the rights of my moderators. Just because I ask them to try to keep their own personal feelings out of threads doesn't mean they can't be hurt by things. It doesn't mean they're carpets for people to walk on and ignore.

It doesn't negate the rest of the issues. It doesn't mean there's any smoke cloud being thrown up to hide anything from the community. It means that *****in the process of addressing this issue, one button too many was pushed, and a very delayed reaction of stored up issues with the button pusher came out into the open*****

It is regrettable that it came to this. It is regrettable that it came at a time when we were discussing other important issues. It is regrettable that I let it get to the avalanche stage instead of addressing it long ago. In retrospect, it is regrettable that I didn't split it out into a separate thread.

Yep, guess that makes me as human as the rest of us.

Doesn't change the fact, however, that I own this site, and while I can/do/will take suggestions on how to run it from the community, and, as a whole, I value that community, in the end, it's my decision that counts.

These boards were built to support the main site. The main site could happily go on without them (and at FAR less expense in money as well as time and energy). They are provided as a service to the community, and I have made it clear in the past that if the community wants to use them, the community needs to respect that they are guests here and do not call the shots.

I am sorry at how this upset folks, not to mention how it has upset me. But it is done, and much of it needed to be said.

Now we go back to day-to-day tradeskill discussion with the remainder of the community and move forward from there.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Ok we are going to go ahead and close this thread.

We have gotten good information from this thread despite everything else, and will be implementing some change. We are going to talk about it amongst the moderators first, then I will make another post within a week or two with what we will be doing going forward.

There were many heated posts in this thread, many posts that would normally get banning or at minimum editing of peoples threads. Despite the one early edit I made, I quickly decided to just let this thread go, and edit no more. I understand that there is some concern about some posts, and some just because some are my friends and some are part of the vocal group.

There will be no banning of people, no censure of people, and no direct action taken against people for what was posted in this thread. It went both ways really with both sides posting things that normally would not be allowed.

I did not even ban the people that requested their posting rights be removed, instead I just set them to "account awaiting email confirmation" which has no posting rights. They just need to send an email to admin@mboards.eqtraders.com to get it set back to a normal registered account.

So for now we are going to let the thread fade away while we work on what we learned from this thread. Niami *MAY* make another post in this thread, but I may have said all she wanted to say