EQTC Moderation.

[Lickity]

Umm...Wow. I am sorry. I love these boards, and had no intent of doing this . I made a mistake a while back, a few days ago actually, and posted a complaint about Moderation in Primal Scream. I admitted this was a mistake after having it pointed out to me, and had a thorough discussion with 2 mods, Ngreth and Niami in PMs. I had no idea this thread would turn into this, nor that 3 and now maybe 4 of my favorite people on this forum are gone, I really apologize, but, case in point, this went the wrong way.

I really want these boards to stay active, but quite frankly, contention breeds progress. You cannot have an active discussin without stepping on a few toes. SOE has made great strides in these last few months to fix their actions after it was pointed out by several places, including this one. They swallowed their pride, and ASKED for suggestions. You followed suit and did the same. Then, in a perfect show of "dictatorship," you took those comments that were said and decided they were a complaint against you. If SOE had done this, not only would the GAME be gone, but so would your site. I am ashamed. I held these boards in quite high esteem. I know you are better than this, but wow.

I take responsibility for starting this, but I am afraid that the consequence was not a direct result of the cause, nor was it ANYWHERE near my intent. I am sorry, but my biggest regret isn't in causing this, I regret that the community couldn't handle it better.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I added a bit to my post 3 posts above this.

[Maevenniia]

EQTC forums are a place to discuss tradeskills, share recipes and tips, celebrate your successes and bemoan your failures, with people who have similar interests, e.g. the “Community."

Just as in any community, there are rules.

Some poeple have played fast and loose with those rules, over and over again. And then say "ah, but we weren't being serious, it was just a joke." Or they apologize, behave better for a while, and then backslide right back into their old behaviours. And the perception becomes that these behaviours are acceptable.


Sometimes riding herd on this community is an exercise in patience. We moderators are not perfect, and we know it. But don’t expect us to cut you some slack when you won’t cut us any.

~~~

There are some valid points and suggestions in the earlier posts, mixed in with all the hyperbole, and you can be sure, as Niami and Ngreth have both said, that moderators will try in future to communicate better, when moderating.

But we won't STOP moderating altogether. Why?
- players can come here knowing that THIS board, unlike may others, is not an absolute cesspool, that they can even let their children browse the site without fear of them happening on vulgarity, flames, and other undesirable elements
- players also know that they can find answers here. Even though the wonderful, searchable database has reduced significantly the amount of posts of "where do I find so-and-so? How do I make this?"
- Devs can come to post here because they know the rules are strictly enforced, and they don't have to fear the SOE bashing that goes on in less-moderated communities.
-etc

~~~

As for the comments made about Niami....Ngreth fully expressed my thoughts on the subject.

THis place would not exist if it were not for Niami and Ngreth. I'm going to be selfish and hope that it continues to exist. I like it here, I enjoy the site, and will miss it if it goes away.

[Cyran]

"Denmother" while I think your efforts to share information on EQ trade skills have been good I think you are taking this message board and some of the posts here a bit too seriously. If your mental and physical health is being affected than you should take a step back and do something else. Don't put yourself in a position to become a leader of anything (which in this case is the EQ tradeskills community website ) if you aren't ready to take some of the negatives that go with it which include criticism. That said, it's your toy and you can pack up your toys and go home with them if you dont want to play in the sandbox but I hope you are able to gain some perspective, relax a bit, and take a deep breath. If you do decide to quit, it will be a shame because this board has been really nice.

[Ngreth Thergn]

You cannot have a constructive discussion without some de-struction. That is: without feeling free to correct the incorrect and set right the not-right. People Are Going To Be Wrong. And it has to be acceptable to tell people, when they ARE incorrect, THAT they are incorrect. Otherwise no progress will ever be made.

without the ability to engage in confrontation, resolving disagreement is impossible.

This is from two requests earlier in this thread.

Peoples response to Niami's third thread are a PRIME example of why we have been so heavy handed on stopping things before they get to the point of a response like Niami put in.

Niami confronted Lilosh. Now you want to yell and scream and say Niami is playing foul when folks ASKED for the ability to have confrontation? You are going to run away and say "I never want to post so much I want you to make me not able to post"

These responses are EXACTLY why we have been so heavy on moderating threads. People always try to put things in where they were not said. Niami never said Lilosh was the cause of all problems, the cause of all of her stress. Yes, she did make a broad statement, but it never mentioned that it is the cause of the current moderation issues.

Yes, we agree, that maybe lately we have been a little too heavy, but that does not disprove our point of WHY we moderate so heavily. I do actually hope that the people that made such comments continue to at least read this, even if they wish not to post.

[Lickity]

Niami's outburst at Lilosh was provoked by his/her trying to start a discussion here. Stating that she had been reluctant to talk about it before, and then, in response to something that you asked for, Lilosh was blasted by the leadership of the boards, that was childish. Lilosh went out on a limb, and I am sure had little other than the interest of the boards in mind, no one is here to undermine you or Niami, we don't pay for the boards, but we love them too. We all just express it differently. People don't criticize the things they like because they want them to go away, they criticize for improvement.

[Madrel]

Well...

The following is my opinion, and as such is not to be taken as Gospel.

On privately owned sites, the First Amendment does not apply. Thus the owners of this site and this message board have the RIGHT (legally and morally) to do whatever-the-heck they want to with it. They have chosen to keep this site "family-friendly", and that means that it WILL be moderated.

As the former admin of a message board, I thoroughly sympathize with the Moderators and Admins here. No matter how careful they are and how hard they try, they will make mistakes. They are human. They put a lot of work into this message board, and they rarely get any thanks for it.

For someone to tell Niami to get outta the kitchen if she can't stand the heat (yes, I'm paraphrasing) is the height of arrogance. Such people have no concept of the time and effort that has been put into making EQTraders.com what it is today. To have all that effort thrown back in her face must hurt. A lot. Frankly, I'm surprised she hasn't exploded long before now.

I do not want to see the message boards shut down; I enjoy reading them, even if I don't post often. I do agree with the earlier suggestion that when a post is moved / edited / deleted / locked that the Moderator must "sign" his work so the post author knows who to contact if he/she wishes to discuss the action.

[Ngreth Thergn]

People don't criticize the things they like because they want them to go away, they criticize for improvement.

But why do people have to criticize in a way that is so charged? The same criticism could have been made in a way that did not imply that the mods were doing such a horrible job. (killing... that defenitely implys a really bad job) Why couldn't it have just been. "I would like to see Y instead of X?"

[Inyidd]

Niami's outburst at Lilosh was provoked by his/her trying to start a discussion here.

Just to clarify. I believe that you state it too simply. More to the point, her post to Lilosh was provoked by the fact that the one person she felt had the least right to jump in here and argue for less strict moderation, was the first and possibly loudest. I believe that what you call childishness, leans more towards the category of righteous indignation - less a tantrum and more an overwhelming sense of injustice. Whether she's right or wrong, I think putting her post on par with a whine does her a disservice.

[Lickity]

The wording is unfortunate, and not something I would have personally chosen. But, the idea is there. Many that post here are young, may not have a vast vocabulary, but have a genuine love for the boards. The comment that moderating was "killing" the boards, was dramatic to say the least, but the idea being conveyed that it was mitigating the usefulness at least should have come across. (Note: if I used killing in any of my statements, I apologize as well, that is not something that normally would have come out of my mouth)

No one wants to see these boards shut down, you and Niami have your lives invested into it, and we all at least have our experiences. Read over what was said, up until they (we) reacted to Niami, we all were posting earnestly trying to answer your question, obviously with mixed results. "Killing" is inflammatory, but that is what we have been saying, look at the context of what is being said, the reaction to the word "Killing" actually DID "KILL (and I use this on purpose) this thread. It went from people discussing the topic at hand to focusing our issue on Niami rather than moderating itself. No one here had a personal issue that was expressed until that post.

[Lickity]

I believe that what you call childishness, leans more towards the category of righteous indignation - less a tantrum and more an overwhelming sense of injustice. Whether she's right or wrong, I think putting her post on par with a whine does her a disservice.

Okay, that is fair. You definately worded this more appropriately.

[Inyidd]

Time to sleep on it. Gnite!

--Inyidd Bullneck
Professional Wallflower

[Tigerwolf Spellbear]

holy

I think everyone needs to take a step back and think things through here and put this train back on track. While it does seem that the threads on this board are well moderated, there also seems to be a need. Otherwise you end up with things unorganized or giant flame wars. As for the third post from Niami, it is her board and it would not exist if she had not created both the site and the board. She and her helpers have done a wonderful job creating and upkeeping both of these. They strive to keep their opinions to themselves and to be fair. It is something we all should strive to do. Its not always easy and sometimes we make mistakes, but that shows us that we are human.

Tigerwolf Spellbear
65th Shaman of Tunare
Board Lurker Extremist

[Itzena]

Deleted by me.

[Kronepsis]

.../sigh.

I feel like I just narrowly escaped half of a mine field, only to be deposited in the middle of the other half. :P

OK, I WAS going to post something else; I think I'll use PMs instead for that, if I decide to say it.

But the main thing is, if people saw the issues about Lilosh which had been brought up in the past, they'll be wondering why Niami didn't outright ban him 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure -- given Lilosh's response to Niami -- that he saw those issues himself, firsthand, when he had the chance to, and remembers some of them now. Because if he didn't, I think he needs to see them.

I know. I saw. So I completely understand Niami's outburst.