EQTC Moderation.

[Noni DeeCups]

Reality check please!

Spyke is not calling anyone control freaks, just stating the facts that people seem to be over looking. People will continue to come and go. The only constant is the owners of this site and the boards that they host. They will continue to do so as long as they *want* to.

They owe no one anything. They might feel obligated to explain or justify their actions however one fact remains, they do not owe anyone anything.

People who depend on this site for information should consider these boards a privilege and treat the owners and those they deem fit for moderation with respect. They have posted rules. Before anyone responds to this thread, they should read them again.

These boards are for discussing trade skills. If you want to talk about what happened to you at work, politics, class balancing - anything other than trade skills - there are hundreds of other boards out there for you to troll. Or better yet, make your own.

I can understand that some people feel a little too attached to these boards. Like this is a sewing circle or something but it isn't. It is for gathering information. Anything beyond that is filler for them to have to sift through.

[Niami DenMother]

I've stayed silent too long, so I am afraid you folks are about to get over a year's worth of earful in one swell foop. I apologize. Unfortunately, if *I* am to be comfortable in my "home" again, it needs to be said, else we run a risk of there not being that home pretty soon.

For those that have only a passing interest in this thread and the results of it, you'll want to stop reading this thread after the next paragraph.

There are issues, and the responses have helped us pinpoint some of the things that we (myself, hubby and staff) can do to improve communication and comfort level on these forums. We *will* be addressing those, and seeing what we can do with them, while still remaining true to our desires for these forums. In the end, if we, the owners, aren't comfortable with it, then it's not worth doing. We *do* appreciate the feedback, and while we can't/won't promise that everything can/will/should be addressed, we'll see what we can do.

~~~
That having been said, there are misconceptions that need to be cleared up, and given what *has* been said, much as I dislike and outright resent the need to do so, I am about to break some of my own rules.

I wrote my next two posts YESTERDAY and have been going round and round in circles in my mind, and with my staff and husband as a sounding board, before posting here. While more recent posts may echo some of the sentiments, and seem to either give more or less justification to what you are about to read, I've decided to leave it pretty intact from yesterday's version. Too long have I shied away when I've not been comfortable with the direction things have gone, fearing I was getting too harsh and bitter. Too long have my moderators, bless them one and all, had to bite their tongues as they continue a trend that I started, despite their own strong personal feelings to the contrary.

No matter how this pans out, I am in a lose-lose situation and know it full well. But, in large part, I am responsible for this mess, and it's up to me to try to sort it out. This one isn't something I can/should delegate, no matter how much this thread threw me off-guard.

While it may seem like I am over-reacting, it's the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, and before I "break" the forums, it's time to set the record straight.

~Mum the unhappy
(2 more posts incoming ...)

[Niami DenMother]

Part 2

I apologize to those of you who have been disturbed by this thread. If it's any consolation, this thread has so disturbed and upset me that we almost closed down the forums Sunday - for good.

I've since gone from despair and depression that folks suddenly got so anti-EQTC to a white-hot rage, as well as a lingering sadness that may not pass until long after this site has faded into the ether ... whenever that might be.

There's over a half-decade of love and anguish poured into these forums, and not just mine. Several dedicated volunteers have had to bite their tongues until they bled time and time again, and had to keep back their own personal feelings when dealing with pretty touchy situations, all to keep this site's rep for impartiality.

But, we're only human. We are human and we will/do make mistakes. Often those mistakes may be quite visible - and the cleaning up after them is sometimes only seen by the parties directly affected.

Some of our moderators are actually specifically tasked with being more hard-nosed than others because some of the rest of us fear we're too soft-hearted and "nice" at times. When stress very visibly makes my medical condition worse, it's been far too easy to "pass the buck" on things that make me uncomfortable, or to let things lie that should have been addressed long ago. While the moderators are going to be working harder at making sure that the reasons why things are being closed, moved, etc. are communicated, I'm going to take a stab at some of the things that I've simply avoided for far too long, because it's been easier on my nerves than addressing it.

As Ngreth touched on above, when the community is unhappy with the game, we get a lot of the fallout. In a time, like now, when there's nothing "huge" regarding tradeskills to distract folks, and a lot of overall unhappiness with the game, people are venting their frustrations here. No, it's not because our moderation style has really changed - it's because attitudes have changed. Even long-time posters are having a harder time staying positive about things, and have been leaving the game and the forums ... or been rather bitter in the forums. We're catching a lot of the fallout, and apparently, at least from some sources, a lot of the undeserved blame.

Yes, there have been some things that could have been handled better on our end - but that works both ways, and in many ways, some of the louder members of our community have also let us down quite strongly. We're working on trying to improve our end, but only you, the members of our community, can work on the other end. THINK on that before you respond sarcastically to an innocent question. THINK on that before you flip someone the dead horse icon without really explaining things to them, merely assuming that because you, old timer that you are, know/think it's a dead horse, that someone who doesn't often frequent the boards will know it. Think on that before you start EVEN IN JOKE a fight on these forums with someone, or slamming someone's playstyle. Maybe YOU think it is innocent, but from the start of these boards, it's not been appropriate here, and you longtime guests, really should know better than to try to throw that in our faces as a moderation example.

This is a TRADESKILL site. Yes, over time, we've allowed more socialization, instead of pure tradeskills, but that relaxing of the way things are run seems to have been taken as an excuse to create/interpret the rules any which way you feel is "right", not what the owners of the site feels right. You can get away with that on the anarchy that is serverwide.eqtraders. But if you harp back longingly to the way the forums were 2 years ago, when there were a LOT less people around, and a lot more activity from me, you're selectively forgetting the "my site, my rules" quote. We value the input from our community, we DO make changes/allowances in how we do things based on that community BUT there is, and always will be limits to what we will do, and when you push to hard and accuse us of "killing" it, you'd darn well better remember that you can push the sense of empowerment too far, and find that we become arbitrary for the sake of the survival of the site.

My next post will be handling, publicly, a mess that I allowed to be created, and I now have to clean up. I apologize in advance for the fact that it will distress many folks, but after comments made in this thread, I feel the need to clear the air, and I can't do that without breaking my own rules. Unlike others who willingly break the rules, however, I *do* own this site, I *am* allowed to do that. The fact that you folks don't see me doing it regularly just means I wasn't pushed too far ... until now.

[Niami DenMother]

Part 3

Now for the hard part - cleaning up after a mess that I allowed to be made.

Yes, this is directed at one single person, and yes, it could have been done in a PM ... but as I've found in the past, PMs only seem to change things in this situation for a short while, and it has only been letting out one side of the story, allowing a large amount of frustration to build on my part, as well as that of my staff's.

I want there to be absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind that there HAS been an injustice done with regards to preferential treatment, and that the person that has been treated so has abused that unspoken policy for the last time.

~~~
Lilosh, some day you will learn that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and that if you push your luck, your luck will run out. However, it's not my job to teach you about life, and it is my "job" to handle this community.

Long ago and far away, I told my staff "be gentle on him, he's just ... overeager". My staff took that as law, and have been overly forgiving on transgressions, and today's post is, unfortunately, the end result. Apparently, this gave the very mistaken impression that we'd "forgive" any transgressions, and has given you a lot more leeway, a lot more "voice" than any one non-staff member of this community has a right to expect.

It is rather sad that you use the example of your multiple warnings, lockings, etc. as an example of non-preferential treatment. It is, in fact THE strongest example of preferential treatment gone way, way too far on this site. The number of complaints from other people directly to me about how we've been too gentle on you time and again is more than the total SUM of other complaints AND compliments that are received by me in PMs for the entire rest of the community. Period.

As a former moderator who was removed from that position for going over the line, you really DO know better - you just choose to ignore it and act as if you EXPECT us to forgive you. If this was the "good old days" of 2 years ago here, before I stepped back from taking such an active part in handling the forums, you'd have been gone after the first warning didn't do the trick. None of this half-bragging about how many times you've been warned, locked, moved, etc.

This isn't serverwide.eqtraders, this is, and will continue to be, until the day I close it down, EQTraders Corner, and after reading your commentary, I will tell you what you SHOULD have been told long ago ... and I tell you this publicly, so there can be NO mistaking, by anyone, what my intent is. If you don't like how moderation is handled here, and you can't be bothered to follow the rules unless it suits you, go make your own site. Kick up your own bandwidth costs with your chatter, YOUR opinions, YOUR increase in the "noise" part of a signal-to-noise ratio that has gone from bad to worse.

Implying, no matter how veiled, that volunteers that you, specifically, have made a TON of extra work for, have ruined the site for you, much less anyone else, is beyond spoiled and selfish - especially since I've not heard a direct complaint from you in my mailbox regarding it, compared to the many, many I've received from members and mods alike in reverse. And it came within inches of making me TOTALLY, UTTERLY close down this side and the half-decade-plus of love and care I have put into this site. It was a very close thing.

But I'm not letting you ruin my sleep, my health, my site, or my community anymore.

Your get out of jail card has expired. You, specifically, haven't even BEGUN to see hard-nosed moderation.

While you may have some valid issues buried in your posts, you've stepped on the wrong toes one too many times, and there's far too much history between you and this site to laugh it off as "just Lilosh acting up ... again". You have done more to hurt me, the moderators and this community, than any 50 trolls combined, and it stops here. Shape up, or ship out.

[Lilosh]

Having read the above post(s) , and gotten (the beginning) of the Denmums feelings on the issues, I'd like to take the rare opportunity to admit I was wrong.

Apparently, I misread the situation, and it's not what i thought it was.

I will await Niamis next (final?) post, and take my lumps from there.


-Noish

[Lilosh]

Having read niami's last post now, I will just shut up,and go away for a while.

I need to digest, and think.


For the last time for a while,
-Noish

[Nhin Impious]

I wish to register my disapproval in the only honorable way I can do so.

That is, "Farewell."

Nhinx Aphsion
(who took that surname for a reason)

[Maisie]

I wasnt going to post anything, simply because I am *not* a well known member of the forum community, nor have I really made any super significant *in my eyes* contributions.
I am not a huge poster, have been reading these boards as Maisie and my previous character for 4 years, I may not be one of the "long time" posters, but I think Noni Deecups said it best for me, and perhaps more people that choose to NOT post.

"I have been using EQ Traders web site and message boards for years. I don't know what you hope to gain from this thread to be honest. You can not make everyone happy no matter what. People threaten to leave? Let them. Threats are for people who have nothing left to say"


I love EQ traders, and will happily use the site. If people have issues with posting, then perhaps they can just use the database? I am not trying to cause trouble, just letting the Den Mom and others know I, and probably a lot more who arent posting, but I dont want to speak for them; LOVE the forums and the site, find all we need, and are happy.

Maisie

[Ngreth Thergn]

And just so people do not think I am being vindictive, Nhin Impious requested his account access to be changed.

[Phabos]

It's me again. It's been a while, but I'm still here.

Now, for my thoughts.

The past year or so, maybe not quite long, I've seen a shift in the community as a whole. I'm not sure why, and to tell the truth, I'm not even sure if I can put my finger on exactly what the change is. I do know one thing, however. The mood has definitely changed. The friendly nature I was once used to has begun to disintegrate. Why? I don't know. Specific examples? Now's not the time.

More importantly, can fault be attributed to any one person or group? I don't think so. Blaming the moderators or the site owners is unfair. Blaming the community as a whole doesn't solve the problem. I have tried, over the past couple of years, to be a voice of reason on the boards and in the community. Sometimes it's worked, other times not. All I know is that things have become more hostile, and people don't want to listen.

As far as this thread is concerned, the moderators may do as they wish. It's not my site, and I'm not a mod. I'm just a guy who likes to play EQ and try to help others. I don't have anything to propose or suggest. I have the sinking feeling that the best thing to do is back off. Someone I consider a good friend was taken to task by someone I respect greatly. I'm conflicted on how to respond. I feel as if I should, but I don't like to burn bridges in an emotional explosion.

I'm not going to become heated and by request or actions be banned. That's appropriate for some, but not for me. What I am going to do is leave these boards for a while. Maybe, sometime in the future, things will calm down. This is not meant as a protest against anyone. I simply lament the fact that the community I felt myself an integral part of has digressed into something I'm not sure I am proud to call myself a part of.

I would, however, like to take the chance to thank Nhinx for her contributions to the community. She's a great friend, and one of my favorite people in the world. Thanks dear.

I would especially like to thank Lilosh. As has been noted, he's been the most vocal, sarcastic, etc. person in the community, both here and in channel. He has his faults, and he'd be one of the first to admit it. But more importantly, he makes people think. Few have made me think, reason, and question more than he has. And I appreciate that. He's a good friend.

Maybe that's what's happened. Maybe no one wants to think anymore. And that is what I hate more than anything.


See y'all in serverwide.


Phabos Aphsion

[kiztent]

While I've not had tremendous good will toward the moderators since the Seru-bane flap, I've felt that the message boards have been a good way to wile away some time.

No more.

Publically humiliating your contributors, whether here or elsewhere isn't appropriate. Ever.

Add me to the banned list please.

[Chantra]

Niami,

I respect the work, time and tears you and Ngreth have done with the dozens of others that have added to this site over the years.

That being said, to see you resort to what is a personal attack to one single person, I find poor form.

I said this in the serverwide.eqtraders channel and I'll echo it here; 'It's still her board, she's within her rights to run it the way she sees fit, BUT, saying those things about Noish(pa), that's a bit much'.

<fixed typo>

[Sanna]

Hm. I've gone over and over this so much I think I've said a lot twice.


It's taken me a couple hours to get over the feeling that a bullet whizzed past and nicked my ear, and instead hit a friend squarely in the chest.

I've pondered what, if anything, to say.

And then I remembered that, despite eight months of trying to salvage, I don't know, "your opinion of me", or maybe my opinion of you, I realized recently that it will never change. I will never be greater than dubious. And it took me over a week to accept that. I thought I could operate on merely dubious for, I don't know, forever if need be.

I'm about to send myself to kos.

Either that, or you'll realize that I'm right.



That, Denmother-sama, is the best example of a thread derail I have yet to see on this board, and close to the best ever. What started as what appeared to be a legitimage attempt on the part of Ngreth Sir to get feedback and not leave 'the proles' feeling as though they have or perhaps would be stepped on, instead managed to turn into a very sharp and shocking public description of your appallingly low opinion of the only other person on the face of this earth who worships the ground you walk on as much as I do.

As much as I did.


I believe that's called a Strawman? When you completely ignore the point in question and instead construct a different arguement and then rip a new set of shreds? No matter. I'm trying to be logical here, and find a middle point, something to agree on. I have this silly notion that if calm rational people sit down and discuss things in calm rational manners, solutions can be found.


That was the most frightening display of lack of rationality I have seen since I looked in the mirror on the morning of November the 6th.


What you just said to the world was, "This is all Lilosh's fault. He is the cause of all of my stress over the past however many years. Anything that has gone wrong on this board has happened because of him. And I never want to see him again as long as I live." And despite whatever truth may be contained in the last sentence, DESPITE YOUR OPINION OF HIM, you MUST know the rest of it is completely and utterly INCORRECT.

Nor is it the point of this thread.

Frankly, I'm scared as hell to be saying this to you. I still respect your position, though in the last two weeks I have, in dual increments, lost most of the remaining respect for you personally. Though I will still continue to refer to you as Denmother-sama, because you ARE. Except... you're still human, too. Just as much as the rest of us.

Now maybe it took that much to get the idea through Lilosh's head. And if that's your honest opinion of him, nothing can change that. What angers ME is that you have snatched what I went to great pains to keep as a civil discussion, despite being baited and perhaps also personally flamed, and turned it into... a wicked poison-tipped scythe.


Of the top five non-mod posters who still post, you have just lost three. If you so decide, you can lose me too. Perhaps I'm deluding myself by thinking my storywindow mods will still be of use to anyone, but I can try. Won't be the first delusion I've been under in the last eight months. Not to mention I still have an Excel file half full of LDoN augment type info, and if someone wants I'll go through and list more things that could take the subcombines not shown tag, and I still have intent to help the Tyking bot get off the ground, if Ngreth Sir wants to work with that. I won't ask to be banned for your public treatment of Noishpa, though that is reprehensible beyond words. My anger comes that you completely upset what was looking to be and what I was trying to keep as a civil discussion about a percieved problem.

I survived the ban stick last time. I am under no illusions I will do the same this time. And the only reason I don't ask out and out for it is, yeah, I'm still clinging to old hopes of being useful.


Before I came to EQTC, in one of my hyper-passionate stages, I ended up destroying a community because another poster nor I backed down from a single fight. I've had that on my shoulders for three years. I will never be able to ask those people for forgiveness. In November, I created my own 'legacy', but fooled myself into believing that if I stuck it out, I could salvage things. Maybe I could still help the place and the people I adored and pedastled and worshipped. Last week I was informed that forgiveness will not be had.


Have your world. Have your playground. Have your site, and your boards, and your followers, and your worshippers. But know this: Someone will rise to take Lilosh's place. Someone will be just as hard headed and loose-cannoned as he. Someone will come to take my place. In that sense, we are not people, we are types, and there are more of us. Maybe you'll see them, maybe you won't. It doesn't even matter.


I tried. I did everything I knew how, to help. That's all I ever wanted; I'm like that. One mistake happened eight months ago, and the reasons for it no longer matter. The repercussions from it no longer matter, either. "It came, to pass." My time here must be up. As must be Lilosh's, and Nhinx's, and, you know, maybe just EQ in general.

I'm sorry for what I've done... but that doesn't matter now. I'm sorry I never helped... but that doesn't matter now. I'm sorry that logic and rationality cannot prevail.... but that doesn't seem to matter now.


I still respect the site. I still respect the blood, sweat, and tears that went into it. As much as I understand devoting five years of life to a single cause, I respect that, too. And I still respect the chair. I no longer hold respect for the person sitting in it.

I'm sorry it went like this. This was what I didn't want. This is what none of us wanted. And maybe the situation is still salvagable. But the ball is in your court this time. You flubbed, madame.

Good luck.

Goodbye.

-- Sanna

[Ngreth Thergn]

Ah.

So, because she is the denmother, she can be constantly publicly humiliated, and it does not matter, but one time, she strikes out at someone it is the end of the world. Sure she has gotten thanks and compliments a lot, so has Lilosh, but she often got attacks. And because we are moderators, it is also ok for us to constantly be attacked, but not ok for Denmom to strike out. Yeah a difference is that this one may stay up while the others have gone away. But then again, eventually this thread will age to obscurity (it will be closed at some point, maybe even deleted)

Just think... if Niami was attacked... would people be saying "I don't want to post on these boards anymore, remove my posting privileges." Sure there would be some outrage, but not people running away. Heck if Lilosh himself made an attack I strongly doubt any of you would go "I am never talking to you again Lilosh." Sure that would result in Lilosh being banned... but I bet there would be people congratulating him... And yes, Niami is not getting banned... but don't think she is not getting heartache from it, mostly even from herself.

As for "ignoring the point" we have done no more of that than anyone else here. We are going to work on some of the ideas brought up in this thread, and the first of the three post by Niami said so, but of course people chose to ignore that and just say we are using Lilosh as a scapegoat.

Saying that we are "killing the boards" was just one of many WRONG ways to go about a civil conversation. Accusing someone of "killing" in any context is not civil. Why did it have to be phrased in such a way as to make the mods feel bad. Why couldn't it have been more a suggestion of things to do, than a statement that implies that we are doing horrible things? It could just been suggested "Moderators should identify themselves when they make an action" and "Moderators should moderate people more and threads themselves less"

Where did we ever accuse him of being ALL of the problems... we just accused him of being a problem.

We knew it was a loose loose situation. No mater what we did we would have a problem. If we did nothing, we had a problem, if we did what we have done in the past, we would have a problem, and obviously what was done, we have a problem. There was absolutely no way for us to win in this.

Sorry this is a bit disconnected... working on getting people out of the store so I can go home... Will probably post more later.

[Eudmin]

Niami, I have been gone from EQ for quite a while but I still come here to visit because tradeskills were some of the most fun I had while playing.

Thanks for all of the years and money and work you have sunk into this site and these boards. It is your gift to the community and to see people reacting to you finally posting and expressing your concerns this way is upsetting, to put it lightly.

Hang in there. Hope things get better for ya, Niami. You have my well wishes and support and I suspect the support of a massive number of people who don't often post.