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Help me with a Cultural vs T5 breakdown?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by fr3d1337 View Post
    For the record, I'd like to state that this is the best CRAFTED itemization in a LOOOONG time. I, for one, think it's fantastic.

    GOOD JOB NGRETH.

    Now, see what you can do about group-able style slot 17 augs similar to Bazu vs, Last blood.
    Actually, I do have to say that, for the most part, I agree with this. It's a real boost up for tradeskills in general.

    Underfoot cultural was created differently specifically BECAUSE they wanted to get away from the form of Bazu/Last Blood augs. DoN cultural got way out of hand because of them, so this Cultural was created in the form it's in to prevent that overinflation again. That's why the slots on this armor are different, to keep people from using Last Bloods and Bazu augs in it.
    --- Jonny Panic and the Bible of Dreams

    Mnesis Obscura, 71 Erudite Enchanter
    Ruinous Dreadnought, 85 Gnome Shadowknight
    Saryrn server

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    • #17
      This is the same boom that cultural received at the release of SoF only the venerable task seemed easier to complete (easier to get to the needed mobs) than the sublime task. However, as the expansion is explored and people start to get into the t8 or even t9 zones they will start to replace the cultural and the desire for the crafted armor will wain. This is the normal cycle though that crafted armor goes through and I think that this round will last a bit longer than some in the past because it does set such a solid baseline for returners or people not already in the best group gear to get a nice boost and be able to tackle some of the UF content.
      Shawlweaver Sphynx on Cazic Thule
      Master Artisan Aldier on Cazic Thule

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      • #18
        Aldier,

        I Completely agree. I could see myself swapping out my Cultural for T8 grp gear. BUT as I am having a hard time finding groups to explore UF in, I doubt I'll see T7+ anytime soon. I'm hoping to keep my cultural going and grab Cosgrove Chain symbols type 17 from raid mobs eventually. That would catapult my cultural to the next level.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by jonnypanic View Post
          Actually, I do have to say that, for the most part, I agree with this. It's a real boost up for tradeskills in general.

          Underfoot cultural was created differently specifically BECAUSE they wanted to get away from the form of Bazu/Last Blood augs. DoN cultural got way out of hand because of them, so this Cultural was created in the form it's in to prevent that overinflation again. That's why the slots on this armor are different, to keep people from using Last Bloods and Bazu augs in it.
          The OP wasn't talking about actually using Bazu and LB augs, they simply meant having a choice of seal so there was a progression between the Solo Seals (doesn't need any drops you cannot solo) to the Raid Seals (need a high-end guild) - currently there is a massive gap between these and it should be filled by Group Seals that scale according to the challenge of obtaining them. As suggested in this post I made in a different thread (cannot seem to link to it so have to copy-paste it)

          So at the moment cultural does not have any "Group" level seals - it only has "Solo" level seals and "Raid" seal - we are totally missing genuine "Group" level seals.

          Now no-one should expect soloable gear (even tradeskilled soloable gear) to be on par with gear from current-content nameds which is why the stats on cultural with the "Solo" level seals are a little disappointing. However why not fix this by introducing some *real* Group-Level Seals?

          The names in UF all have a chance of droping special clay that can be used to make the new Group-Level non-cultural armours - why not introduce some extra recipes that enable this clay to be used to make Group-Level Seals for cultural?

          Thus we would be able to gradually upgrade our cultural gear as we progress through the Teirs of UF (instead of using cultural armour for the first month, then replacing it with armour from drops, then returning to it when we get raid-clay). So we would have a progression through the seals along the lines of:

          * Solo Seals :- 25 Purity, Weak Level Foci (the current Soloist Seals)
          * Teir 6 Stellite Seals :- 25 Purity, 5 AC, 50 HEM, Same Level Foci as Stellite Group Armour
          * Teir 7 Celestrium Seals :- 25 Purity, 10 AC, 100 HEM, +1 to a couple of Mod2's, Same Level Foci as Celestrium Group Armour
          * Teir 8 Vitallium Seal :- 25 Purity, 15 AC, 150 HEM, +1 to a couple of heroics, light scattering of +1's & +2's to Mod2's, Same Level Foci as Vitallium Group Armour
          * Teir 9 xxxxxx Seal :- 25 Purity, 20 AC, 200 HEM, light scattering of +1's & +2's to heroics, light scattering of +1's & +2's to Mod2's, Same Level Foci as xxxxxxx Group Armour
          * Raid Seal (based on the stats someone linked earlier, so dunno if these are genuine in-game stats yet) :- 25(? or is it 45?) Purity, 45 AC, 595 HEM, numerous heroics & Mod2's, Raid Level Foci.


          I believe that this would be a great solution - the raid seal would still be miles ahead of even the highest level group seal, but the group seals would allow the cultural to improve (and stay on par with the gear of the teirs being hunted) as its wearer progresses through the higher teirs and manages to kill more high-teir names.
          Telorea
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          • #20
            I am the OP. However, the discussion has strayed somewhat from the original point of the post. My comment as you've quoted, concerning Bazu and other DoN Cultural raid augs was in response to fredleet's request to Ngreth for bazu and last blood level augs for group armor; the design of Cultural armor was changed specifically because those types of augs made the DoN Cultural armor too powerful.

            Considering your post, I actually do think a "group" level of augs would be a nice alternative; solo seals, group seals, raid seals. My original point, however, in starting this post is that some Cultural is underpowered beyond reason. Apparently, in light of the subsequent discussion, the issue lies primarily in Plate armor; casters get what they want out of cultural, priests get what they want out of cultural, all melee get what they want out of cultural, everybody gets what they'd hope for out of Cultural except Clerics, Warriors, Shadowknights and Paladins, who have to consider some hard downgrades to wear cultural if they want the full effect of chest Emblem augs and Cultural charms, and hybrids because the cultural charm... even with two good charm augs in it... is a direct downgrade from the easy-to-use T5 Turasian Talisman, which only requires languages.

            And all because they couldn't add maybe three or four shielding to the boots and wrists total and maybe one shielding and a few more heroics to the hybrid charm.

            In retrospect, I realise that, were my SK to switch to fulll cultural including the charm, he would lose FIVE shielding and only gain three avoidance because of the poor charm mod2s. Paladins, specifically, are in the same boat since we're both hybrids. This is terrible.
            --- Jonny Panic and the Bible of Dreams

            Mnesis Obscura, 71 Erudite Enchanter
            Ruinous Dreadnought, 85 Gnome Shadowknight
            Saryrn server

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            • #21
              I agree with you that shielding appears to be missing from the cultural bracers.

              T5 SK: Ordained = 1, Tarnished = 0, Tainted = 0, Inflicted = 2, Cultural = 0, Stellite (t6) = 2, Celestrium (t7) = 2, Vitallium (t8) = 2
              T5 WAR: Ordained = 1, Tarnished = 2, Tainted = 1, Inflicted = 1, Cultural = 0, Stellite (t6) = 2, Celestrium (t7) = 2, Vitallium (t8) = 2
              T5 PAL: Ordained = 2, Tarnished = 2, Tainted = 1, Inflicted = 2, Cultural = 0, Stellite (t6) = 2, Celestrium (t7) = 2, Vitallium (t8) = 2

              These are pulled from lucy links of the bracers. Something REALLY seems off with cultural and the t5 SK armor.

              I am gonna try and get some more breakdowns of warrior gear since that is what my box is I can get in game values.
              Last edited by Aldier; 01-21-2010, 11:48 PM.
              Shawlweaver Sphynx on Cazic Thule
              Master Artisan Aldier on Cazic Thule

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              • #22
                Warrior Shielding: All t5-t8 versions and cultural.
                Armor Set - Shielding
                Tier 5 (Inflicted) Total: 7
                Tier 5 (Ordained) Total: 10
                Tier 5 (Tainted) Total: 8
                Tier 5 (Tarnished) Total: 9
                Tier 6 (Stellite) Total: 15
                Tier 7 (Celestrium) Total: 13
                Tier 8 (Vitallium) Total: 15
                Cultural Total: 9

                Bracers:
                Armor Set - Shielding
                Tier 5 (Inflicted): 1
                Tier 5 (Ordained): 1
                Tier 5 (Tainted): 1
                Tier 5 (Tarnished): 2
                Tier 6 (Stellite): 2
                Tier 7 (Celestrium): 2
                Tier 8 (Vitallium): 2
                Cultural: 0
                Last edited by Aldier; 01-29-2010, 02:51 PM.
                Shawlweaver Sphynx on Cazic Thule
                Master Artisan Aldier on Cazic Thule

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by jonnypanic View Post
                  I am the OP. However, the discussion has strayed somewhat from the original point of the post. My comment as you've quoted, concerning Bazu and other DoN Cultural raid augs was in response to fredleet's request to Ngreth for bazu and last blood level augs for group armor; the design of Cultural armor was changed specifically because those types of augs made the DoN Cultural armor too powerful.

                  Considering your post, I actually do think a "group" level of augs would be a nice alternative; solo seals, group seals, raid seals. My original point, however, in starting this post is that some Cultural is underpowered beyond reason. Apparently, in light of the subsequent discussion, the issue lies primarily in Plate armor; casters get what they want out of cultural, priests get what they want out of cultural, all melee get what they want out of cultural, everybody gets what they'd hope for out of Cultural except Clerics, Warriors, Shadowknights and Paladins, who have to consider some hard downgrades to wear cultural if they want the full effect of chest Emblem augs and Cultural charms, and hybrids because the cultural charm... even with two good charm augs in it... is a direct downgrade from the easy-to-use T5 Turasian Talisman, which only requires languages.

                  And all because they couldn't add maybe three or four shielding to the boots and wrists total and maybe one shielding and a few more heroics to the hybrid charm.

                  In retrospect, I realise that, were my SK to switch to fulll cultural including the charm, he would lose FIVE shielding and only gain three avoidance because of the poor charm mod2s. Paladins, specifically, are in the same boat since we're both hybrids. This is terrible.
                  Any discussion of the relative defensive power between armor sets, must include: Avoidance, Shielding, AC, HP and Heroics. The mobs being fought is also a factor. With high DB mobs shielding is important. With low DB mobs it isn't. With high DI mobs AC is important. With low DI mobs it isn't. In most group content the mobs are high DI/low DB. There is the occasional high DB mob, though.

                  I am not saying that Shielding shouldn't be increased on Stalwart armor (personally, I believe that it should). I am just saying that by not including all defensive factors in the armor, you are skewing the conversation and also opening yourself up to a possibility of a result you wouldn't like. Do you really want to see in the near future something like, "We are increasing the overall Shielding of plate Stalwart armor sets by +2% and reducing the overall AC by 200"? (which according to the way some people calculate it, is an even swap.)
                  Huntmaster Bariag DarkWoods

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by gggrant View Post
                    Any discussion of the relative defensive power between armor sets, must include: Avoidance, Shielding, AC, HP and Heroics. The mobs being fought is also a factor. With high DB mobs shielding is important. With low DB mobs it isn't. With high DI mobs AC is important. With low DI mobs it isn't. In most group content the mobs are high DI/low DB. There is the occasional high DB mob, though.

                    I am not saying that Shielding shouldn't be increased on Stalwart armor (personally, I believe that it should). I am just saying that by not including all defensive factors in the armor, you are skewing the conversation and also opening yourself up to a possibility of a result you wouldn't like. Do you really want to see in the near future something like, "We are increasing the overall Shielding of plate Stalwart armor sets by +2% and reducing the overall AC by 200"? (which according to the way some people calculate it, is an even swap.)
                    That is not the change that is being discussed. The topic is that the cultural armor, a UF crafted armor set that is supposed to be between t6 and t7 group gear is weaker than t5 group gear on the bracer slot because of the mod2s. If they increased the shielding by 2% and reduced the ac by 200, the armor would STILL be weaker than t5 group gear and that would not solve the problem, simply transfer the complaints from shielding to ac.
                    Shawlweaver Sphynx on Cazic Thule
                    Master Artisan Aldier on Cazic Thule

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Aldier View Post
                      That is not the change that is being discussed. The topic is that the cultural armor, a UF crafted armor set that is supposed to be between t6 and t7 group gear is weaker than t5 group gear on the bracer slot because of the mod2s. If they increased the shielding by 2% and reduced the ac by 200, the armor would STILL be weaker than t5 group gear and that would not solve the problem, simply transfer the complaints from shielding to ac.
                      That IS my point. You state that UF cultural armor is suppose to be between Tier 6 and Tier 7 group gear and claim that it is less than Tier 5. You demonstrate your claim based on the shielding of the bracers only. You are not considering any other stats nor other armor slots, just the shielding on the bracers. You have to demonstrate that the TOTAL package is less desirable than Tier 5. By concentrating on just a subset, you (not me, YOU) open yourself to a fix that isn't really a fix.
                      Huntmaster Bariag DarkWoods

                      Master Artisan

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by gggrant View Post
                        That IS my point. You state that UF cultural armor is suppose to be between Tier 6 and Tier 7 group gear and claim that it is less than Tier 5. You demonstrate your claim based on the shielding of the bracers only. You are not considering any other stats nor other armor slots, just the shielding on the bracers. You have to demonstrate that the TOTAL package is less desirable than Tier 5. By concentrating on just a subset, you (not me, YOU) open yourself to a fix that isn't really a fix.
                        If you scroll up to post 22 you will see where I listed the shielding for a complete set of all versions of t5 and t6/7/8 and cultural. There is a lack of shielding overall on the cultural, imo. Looking more closely at the bracers (since you wear 2 bracers) that is where the drop in shielding occurs. Adding 1 shielding to the cultural bracers raises the full set by 2 shielding and brings it back in line with the other aspects of the armor compared to group armor dropped sets.
                        Shawlweaver Sphynx on Cazic Thule
                        Master Artisan Aldier on Cazic Thule

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                        • #27
                          I wanted to go 1 step further to analyze the tanking if you will stats.

                          Set: AC HP Shd Avd
                          Tier 8 (Vitallium): 1022 8020 15 34
                          Tier 7 (Celestrium): 971 7310 15 32
                          Tier 6 (Stellite): 923 6680 15 32
                          Tier 5 (Tarnished): 844 5845 9 24
                          Tier 5 (Tainted): 844 5845 8 25
                          Tier 5 (Ordained): 844 5845 10 23
                          Tier 5 (Inflicted): 844 5845 7 26
                          Cultural: 903 6995 9 32

                          Updated the t7 armor set as the boots were finally made/logged.

                          So cultural is supposed to be between T6 and t7 yet is severely lacking in shielding. The avoidance, ac, hp are all within reason, but shielding is still a key component for a tank.
                          Last edited by Aldier; 02-03-2010, 01:08 PM.
                          Shawlweaver Sphynx on Cazic Thule
                          Master Artisan Aldier on Cazic Thule

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