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  • Help me with a Cultural vs T5 breakdown?

    I'm stuck woking some lousy 10 hour overnight shifts, so my access to the game and how much time I can spend on game sites is limited.

    However, it's become clear that some pieces of Underfoot Cultural armor have fallen short of expectations. What I'm looking for is input from each archetype class (silk, leather, chain, plate) as to the strengths and weaknesses of each piece of Cultural (head, arms, wrists, hands, chest, legs, boots) with a Skeptic symbol (only difference in symbols is resist distribution, which at this level is negligible) compared to that archetype's ideal fom of T5 armor.

    For instance, I do know off the top of my head that if you compare Cultural plate wrists to Shadowknight group T5 Inflicted wrists, you lose 2 shielding and 1 avoidance, as Inflicted has 2 shielding and 3 avoidance while Cultural only has 2 avoidance.

    However, T5 Shadowknight Inflicted greaves have 2 shielding and 3 avoidance, while Cultural has 3 shielding and 6 avoidance.

    I'm not looking for a discussion of what people were hoping to see, I just want to see what the strengths and weaknesses of each archetype armor have, hopefully. My goal is to provide Ngreth with ready-to-go information on where Cultural has hit the mark and where it has fallen short. I'm looking for numbers, not debates.

    In short, the idea is:
    I need one silk player, one leather player, one chain player and one plate player (at least)
    To compare the combination of Stalwart cultural for their archetype (silk, leather, chain, plate) and a Venerable Stalwart Skeptic symbol for that piece (head, arms, wrists, hands, chest, legs, boots)
    To their ideal form of T5 SoD armor for that piece
    For every piece
    To see where Cultural has, infact, improved upon T5 and where it has developed a shortcoming

    In my above example, I am a Shadowknight comparing Cultural legs and wrists to the Shadowknight's preferred T5 form of wrists and legs: Inflicted. The highlights of each comparison was that Cultural wrists are 2 shielding 1 avoidance short, but Cultural legs are 1 shielding 3 avoidance ahead
    --- Jonny Panic and the Bible of Dreams

    Mnesis Obscura, 71 Erudite Enchanter
    Ruinous Dreadnought, 85 Gnome Shadowknight
    Saryrn server

  • #2
    http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...ad.php?t=20041

    We've already been discussing the T5/T6/T7/T8 plate for Warrs Vs. the UF Cultural.

    I have a full set of UF Cultural Chain with Venerable Augs. If what your asking is a complete breakdown of all UF Chain vs. T5 SoD Berserker Gear, I can give you the two and then a Net Gain/loss at the end from going T5 to UF cult.

    Comment


    • #3
      If I recall, Ngreth may have mentioned this during beta, that the cultural armor was compared against an average t5 group gear item, not the best t5 group gear items. That is why you might see a change (drop) in some stats.
      Shawlweaver Sphynx on Cazic Thule
      Master Artisan Aldier on Cazic Thule

      Comment


      • #4
        Aldier,

        All in all i think that UF is a comparable option to T5 group. You lose some class specificity but gain a few hps / ac and some stats. I have no complaints about the Cultural (minus the 85 req for Venerable quest and 85 req on Cosgrove Seals) and feel that this armor is a viable option for those who can't find T5 armor farming groups. While killing in Tosk or Warrens or Dranik etc, the groups I'm in are after nameds for T4-T5 gear, and i'm looting the Spongy Loams, Vanadium ores, Immaculate Spinarretes and Marrows.... Most don't blink an eye and I've gone from Elegant to T5+ in one Spongy and 2-3 vanadium while they worry about the Essences.

        For example: I used T5 Inflicted Berserker Armor Vs. Ogre Cultural Chain with Terror augs (Cazic Thule).

        Gains are # and losses are (#).

        You can see below that I lose my BP clicky (obvious) and Frenzy / Kick dmg + because those are class specific. But in general. It's not all gains and not all loses. It's an even swap, with maybe the UF cultural snaking out a tiny advantage to the AC/HP crowd.

        Code:
        NET GAIN GOING FROM T5 to UF		
        		
        		
        STAT	TOTAL	HEROIC
        		
        AC	52 	
        FRENZY	(37)	
        KICK	(30)	
        STR	51 	11 
        DEX	38 	10 
        STA	66 	15 
        CHA	16 	15 
        WIS	135 	24 
        INT	77 	8 
        AGI	29 	14 
        HP	1125 	
        END	1220 	
        MANA	6810 	
        FIRE	(93)	
        DIS	23 	
        COLD	(85)	
        MAGIC	75 	
        POISON	70 	
        COR	(13)	
        CE	3 	
        SHIELD	2 	
        SSHIELD	2 	
        AVOID	5 	
        ACC	1 	
        STUN-R	1 	
        STRK-T	0 	
        DOT-S	0 	
        ATK	15 	
        HP+	1 	
        MANA+	18 	
        DS	0 	
        CLAIR	80 	
        SPL DMG	40 	
        DS MIT	(1)	
        HEAL +	40
        Last edited by fr3d1337; 01-11-2010, 02:30 PM. Reason: Added more words at the start :)

        Comment


        • #5
          BTW, I really don't want the stats on these armors changed. I think they're fine. You gain some you lose some. This is not supposed to be armor that beats out UF group gear, only allows the casual person to buy into T5ish armor and be able to group in UF without months of Essence camping in SoD zones.

          Comment


          • #6
            Increased ac, hp, mana, end, and more heroics. It looks like zerkers are better off in Cultural than t5. For my alt, I did not have any real desire to have to camp a ton of essences for his armor so I went straight to cultural. Also, with the cultural charm + the emblem on the bp is benefits me more to have everything cultural I think instead of mixing and matching. That is until I can get a different charm and a few new pieces that are clearly better than cultural. I will try and see if I can find some more data to help you though.

            I have used this site, http://lsd.ozzy.no/armor_stats.php to help gauge what version of SoD armor (group or raid) to go for. It will give you a quick stat count for SoD armor so all you would need is to compile the cultural armor stat set numbers.
            Shawlweaver Sphynx on Cazic Thule
            Master Artisan Aldier on Cazic Thule

            Comment


            • #7
              Honestly, it's likely that in many instances Cultural is equal to or even beats out T5 gear. However, if Cultural is supposed to be about Tier 5.5 or Tier 6 in strength, then a shadowknight losing 4 shielding and 2 avoidance (counting both wrists) is a huge hit to tanking, especially since we're going into an expansion where the group trash hits for five digits.

              I suppose this has become a discussion despite my explicit request via the OP. That's fine, in light of what I have to work with. How about this: I need people from each class to state exactly what is missing should they change from T5 to Cultural. Despite fredleet's lackadaisical approach to the game, the fact is that while some downgrades are negligible, strength for casters, for example, other downgrades are... well... unreasonable, such as the aforementioned loss of shielding and avoidance.

              Altho, to be honest, I'd be fine with the 1 less avoidance per wrist if it at least included the 2 shielding.

              Edit: Apparently, the Cultural plate boots also have no shielding. While the gain overall going to cultural may be an upgrade, the fact is that a group-level plate class is forced to mix and match T5 and Cultural to avoid losing these important mod2s, which in turn reduces the overall benefit of any emblems and, if one uses them, cultural charms as one has neither a full set of T5 nor a full set of cultural.
              Last edited by jonnypanic; 01-11-2010, 04:22 PM. Reason: clarification
              --- Jonny Panic and the Bible of Dreams

              Mnesis Obscura, 71 Erudite Enchanter
              Ruinous Dreadnought, 85 Gnome Shadowknight
              Saryrn server

              Comment


              • #8
                I finally sat down and compared each piece of Cultural (Stalwart + Venerable Skeptic)

                I'm not sure where you're getting that this is an upgrade. If I switched from my collection of T5 group armor to a full set of Cultural group armor, I'd gain 6 avoidance (av) at the cost of 4 shielding (sh) At an exchange of 1 sh = 5 avoid or even 3 avoid, this is a major disparity. The breakdown is as follows:

                Chest: Ordained or Tarnished T5 SoD BP provides 2 sh and 1 av. Cultural gives 3 sh and 7 av. +1/+6
                Legs: Inflicted gives 2 sh and 3 av. Cultural gives 3 sh and 6 av. +1/+3
                Arms: Tarnished gives 2 sh and 5 av. Cultural gives 1 sh and 4 av. -1/-1
                Head: Ordained gives 1 sh and 5 av. Cultural gives 1 sh and 4 av. 0/-1
                Hands: Ordained or Tarnished give 1 sh and 6 av. Cultural gives 1 sh and 4 av. 0/-2
                Feet: Ordained gives 1 sh and 3 av. Cultural gives 0 sh and 3 av. -1/0
                Wrists: Inflicted gives 2 sh and 3 av. Cultural gives 0 sh and 2 av. -2/-1 Double this because there's two wrist slots.

                I'm not sure what the target was for Cultural... I've heard everything from Tier 5.5 to Tier 7... but a 4 shielding loss in an expansion where the group trash hits for five digits is a HUGE loss, hp be danged. Avoidance is nice, but I can't count on a mob missing me... and when it does I want to reduce the damage as best possible; remember, three out of the five classes using this plate cultural are tank classes.

                Want more? Using the same T5 SoD group gear (Chest becomes Ordained, Hands tarnished), I LOSE 2 stun resist and 2 spell shielding in exchange for 2 dot shielding. Great, I want to delay attack rounds more and be hit harder by straight dds in exchange for taking a little more damage from something that's trying to kill me slowly anyways.
                Last edited by jonnypanic; 01-12-2010, 01:21 AM.
                --- Jonny Panic and the Bible of Dreams

                Mnesis Obscura, 71 Erudite Enchanter
                Ruinous Dreadnought, 85 Gnome Shadowknight
                Saryrn server

                Comment


                • #9
                  HAHAHAHA.

                  Lackadaisical....

                  Anyway, Johnny 5 - Alive, Here's the solution. Upgrade all but your wrist slots from T5 SoD to Cultrual. Now you've got MORE shielding than you had before and More HP and more AC. WIN.
                  Last edited by fr3d1337; 01-12-2010, 10:31 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This from a class who's job responsibilities include not getting hit. If you are getting hit or tanking regularly, you're in trivial content or you're careless. And, yes, I do have a berserker.

                    First, if this gear is supposed to be even just about tier 5.5, the mod2s are way off.

                    Second, you would have to inundate me with hp and heroics.... I mean several hundred hp and multiple tens of hstr, hdex and hagi... to make up for the impact of losing 4 shielding as a tank. 4 shielding is thousands more damage taken in the course of a fight in Underfoot, which is more work for the healer.

                    Third, if this stuff is even supposed to be EQUAL to T5 armor, it's unreasonable to make Emblems and Cultural charms and then force a player to mix and match, ultimately reducing the impact of said emblems and cultural charms, as both require full sets for their full effect.

                    I do give you points fer callin' me Johnny 5, though. I loved that movie as a kid!
                    Last edited by jonnypanic; 01-12-2010, 05:11 PM.
                    --- Jonny Panic and the Bible of Dreams

                    Mnesis Obscura, 71 Erudite Enchanter
                    Ruinous Dreadnought, 85 Gnome Shadowknight
                    Saryrn server

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jonnypanic View Post
                      This from a class who's job responsibilities include not getting hit. If you are getting hit or tanking regularly, you're in trivial content or you're careless. And, yes, I do have a berserker.

                      [...]

                      I do give you points fer callin' me Johnny 5, though. I loved that movie as a kid!
                      Actually, I Maintank for my group when we do SoD T5 named mobs. I only have 21% shielding though so i'm working on that.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That actually means you're in trivial content. When you hit content that hits hard enough that you're group needs a tank class to get the job done because your ber just can't mitigate the damage enough and has to stick to dpsing, you're in relevant content.
                        --- Jonny Panic and the Bible of Dreams

                        Mnesis Obscura, 71 Erudite Enchanter
                        Ruinous Dreadnought, 85 Gnome Shadowknight
                        Saryrn server

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think that might be a matter of opinion. I consider trivial content when they no longer drop gear that is a significant upgrade. It might not be the most difficult content for my level, but just because we're not sticking to our "designated" roles to me doesn't make it "trivial". But just to stay on track and nip this in the bud I think a lot of people will have different opinions on what trivial content is, and we should just agree to disagree.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            By definition, Trivial content is content where there is little or no risk or reward. If a berserker is tanking and the group, whatever size isn't constantly doing their best and at risk of failure, they're in trivial content. When the content is so strong, that you need a tank because only a tank can mitigate the hits enough and you need a full group with a healer or two, crowd control, and enough dps to get the job done, and the rewards are the top end stuff, you're not in trivial content. Want to go more in-depth on it? I challenge you to go to Evilgamer.net, sign up, and brag that you're tanking non-trivial content with a berserker doing T5 named and find out just people mean when they refer to "trivial" EQ content. You tank T5 named with yer berserker? What did the healer already finish T7 or 8 and start carrying you? Or do you group with a wizard with the Prolonged Destruction/Silent casting/ Ethereal 2/Twincast/2nd Spire/etc combo who can dps named down in 30 seconds so you don't have to suvive long? Maybe one of yer mates is a raider. Be ready, because they'll start with all the reasons you can't be a ber tank in your gear against T5 named without someone carrying you.

                            If this guy is tanking T5 named for his group, the content is so easy they don't need a tank, and the gear in T5 is less than T6, which makes it technically obsolete. It's time for him to buck up to the job he was built for (dps), let the tank do the tanking, yawp some warcries, and get some Underfoot gear.

                            In the meantime, Cultural plate is still technically a downgrade for tank classes and clerics, and this needs an honest resolution, not a workaround or patchwork fix like "Just keep your T5 wrists!"

                            It may ONLY be the tank Cultural that has this issue. I don't know because my chanter and berserker aren't high enough level to wear it. Perhaps the chain, leather and silk armor is fine for their classes, because most of the complaints I see from other people are tank classes. But four out of five classes that wear plate armor (War, Shd, Pal, Clr) are being let down because he Cultural plate... really... just doesn't have enough shielding too really be an upgrade for them.

                            Also of note: Ngreth, I compared the Stalwart Cultural hybrid charm to the easily-used Turasian Talisman/Talisman of the Turasian Sycophant... even with Valthon's Memory Shard and Slipgear's Gem, it gains only 18 AC and 100 hp, but loses 1 shielding, 2 avoidance, 4 HStr, EIGHT HAgi, and three HDex. With this Underfoot-level charm being designed for specifically hybrids, would it be possible to add some more heroics (the heroics on it are TERRIBLE for Underfoot gear) and... if you feel generous... a bit more avoidance or shielding?
                            Last edited by jonnypanic; 01-15-2010, 12:12 AM. Reason: spelling
                            --- Jonny Panic and the Bible of Dreams

                            Mnesis Obscura, 71 Erudite Enchanter
                            Ruinous Dreadnought, 85 Gnome Shadowknight
                            Saryrn server

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              For the record, I'd like to state that this is the best CRAFTED itemization in a LOOOONG time. I, for one, think it's fantastic.

                              GOOD JOB NGRETH.

                              Now, see what you can do about group-able style slot 17 augs similar to Bazu vs, Last blood.

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