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  • Making Recipe Books useful

    From some posts by Ngreth on Artisans Way in the Cultural Revamp thread:
    Dev-Ngreth wrote:
    There will be a means for you to ‘learn' the new recipes easily as a means to prevent you guys having to ‘experiment' to learn all the new recipes. This will be provided via books in game that you can ‘scribe' by right clicking them to learn all of the recipes associated with that book. These books will start out inexpensive, though we are considering increasing the price in a couple months to something more appropriate, so you'll want to make sure you get them as soon as possible.
    Actually the plan is to not allow "experimenting" but require the books to learn it.
    There are thoughts of losing the "experiment" system and going to only learned by book, but we have not decided on that. If we "theoretically" (and this is just in conversation at this point, as it involves large code changes) went away from the experiment mode, we could get rid of "combine" containers. Instead it would be just an item that you had to have, that you click on and it opens the tradeskill list window. We could get rid of the "only one person at a time" issue with world containers. Just click on it and stay near, and you get to make combines in it. Since it is not actually opening a container, we don't have the problems we currently have with sharing a world container. We could also break away from the "only 10 items" issue since you don't have to fit the items in a container.

    The side issue is that we can loose a bit of the fun mystery combines, but I can do that a bit with the task window. I can leave the task elements vague until you find the parts and then once all parts are found have a way to "learn" the recipe from that.

    Remember. At this time, just speculation. I don't want to sidetrack this thread too much so if folks feel the need to talk about this speculation more, lets start another thread.
    I really think this would be an interesting change. I'll be the first to admit that I rarely read the in-game recipe books (and even then most of the time I read them out of game). Some recipes are much easier to aquire than others, but for the most part once one or two people find a recipe, the rest of us just copy it from this board rather than seek the book out ourselves to learn it.

  • #2
    What about the deluxe toolboxes? It's a cheap 10 slot container that most players buy for the bank space. Would those remain useable as plain vanilla 10 slot box or would it start causing problem for non tinkers?

    Grolyn Blacknife
    Beastlord
     T:7
     M:0
     T:6
     M:1
     T:6
     M:0
    Fletching:
    284
     T:7
     M:0
     T:6
     M:0
     T:7
     M:2
    Zira Blacknife
    Shaman
     T:7
     M:0
    Maelin Starpyre
    Vazaelle
    Reiseraa
    Necro
    Research:
    102

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Unapuma View Post
      What about the deluxe toolboxes? It's a cheap 10 slot container that most players buy for the bank space. Would those remain useable as plain vanilla 10 slot box or would it start causing problem for non tinkers?
      They may no longer be useful for that and folks have to go back to relying on tailors to make them big bags.

      I am not sure I have a problem with this Plus I would probably remove a bunch of extra "tradeskill" containers that are no longer needed since size will no longer matter.
      Ngreth Thergn

      Ngreth nice Ogre. Ngreth not eat you. Well.... Ngreth not eat you if you still wiggle!
      Grandmaster Smith 250
      Master Tailor 200
      Ogres not dumb - we not lose entire city to froggies

      Comment


      • #4
        So let me guess, all the obsolete tradeskill containers would get converted to disenchated bags so players can keep items inside it? Those bags will still be useable for bank storeage even though they weight over 25 and not good for carrying around. I would suggest an advance warning to players that uses portable tradeskill conmtainer as storeage that they are being removed so they can deal with it before the change.

        Looks like I need to start stockpiling HQ bear skin and HQ rockhopper hides, hand made backlpack would be in fairly high demand for a while.

        Grolyn Blacknife
        Beastlord
         T:7
         M:0
         T:6
         M:1
         T:6
         M:0
        Fletching:
        284
         T:7
         M:0
         T:6
         M:0
         T:7
         M:2
        Zira Blacknife
        Shaman
         T:7
         M:0
        Maelin Starpyre
        Vazaelle
        Reiseraa
        Necro
        Research:
        102

        Comment


        • #5
          This is not anywhere near current plans so plenty of time to figure out the little niggles.
          Ngreth Thergn

          Ngreth nice Ogre. Ngreth not eat you. Well.... Ngreth not eat you if you still wiggle!
          Grandmaster Smith 250
          Master Tailor 200
          Ogres not dumb - we not lose entire city to froggies

          Comment


          • #6
            Bank accounts could always come with "safety deposit boxes" which are 100lb equivalents of, but without the annoying combine button of, the deluxe toolboxes. It wouldn't really matter for money wise as it costs all of 40 plat to fill up your bank with toolboxes. (The second or third thing I do on a new toon)

            Otherwise, I really like the sound of this change, with one exception... tasks are by their very nature level restrictive. It would compound the problem I have now with the cost-prohibitive/level restrictive combines I make. My level 45 artisan(with charms/old style tropheys) will now have no choice but to level to learn new combines for a tradeskill.

            On the other hand I've just switched servers and started from scratch in the TSS zones and I am having a blast with that content, so I love to have level appropriate task like missions.

            Ten.
            I call for the elimination of EQ levels 1-50.

            Comment


            • #7
              Seems all the new tradeskill changes are be stolen from WoW. In WoW you have to buy a recipe like a spell scroll and scribe it to learn a recipe.
              Liwsa 75 Druid Prexus - Retired


              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Liwsa View Post
                Seems all the new tradeskill changes are be stolen from WoW. In WoW you have to buy a recipe like a spell scroll and scribe it to learn a recipe.
                Actually, it's similar to this in most newer MMORPG's, including EQ2.

                One consequence of this would be to make the collapsable contains obsolete, unless they were required for any mobile combines, in which case the demand for them would skyrocket. There would be no middle ground.

                Danedori

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ngreth Thergn View Post
                  They may no longer be useful for that and folks have to go back to relying on tailors to make them big bags.

                  I am not sure I have a problem with this Plus I would probably remove a bunch of extra "tradeskill" containers that are no longer needed since size will no longer matter.
                  Um ... I am sure I'm not the only player with several accounts full of characters which are primarily using deluxe toolboxes for bank storage. Actually, some of my "storage mule" characters even use the deluxe toolboxes for general inventory slot containers. They're cheap, they hold giant sized items and they have 10 slots. They're also not terribly heavy.

                  I have no idea what would happen if I suddenly had to swap out all those containers for something else. It would be such a huge inconvenience that I would surely be very, very grumpy for a very long while. I also have some other combine containers which I am using for bank storage including some Deluxe Sewing Kits, at least one fletching kit, some of the old pre-revision Vale sewing kits (which are now completely useless for anything but storage), at least one Coldain swing kit ... Geeze ...

                  Please don't make all those things useless for storage. I can't even begin to imagine how long it would take me to find suitable replacements for all those containers. I mean, sriously, I'm literally talking about something like 200 containers on my accounts alone, let alone anybody else's.

                  Maybe if you left the old containers alone other than to rename them and disable the combine buttons and then added new tradeskill clickie items for use with the new tradeskill interface? Perhaps you could even add one or more quest NPCs in POK and/or all the starter cities who would let players swap various old combine containers for the new tradeskill interface items and back again or something. Or maybe it would be a one-way swap to the new tradeskill clickie item? (I don't know what would work best for you at this point.)

                  I remember back in the day there was a period where the large sewing kits which originally had 8 slots suddenly acquired 2 more. This happened at about the time when the Wu's fighting silks recipes first came out. Some of the Wu's silk recipes needed more than 8 slots, and at the time there were no looms in the game, so, all the large sewing kits in the game suddenly gained two slots.

                  That lasted a month or so, if I recall correctly, then the growing hue and cry from the tailors of that period (for whom one of the primary money making recipes was the 10-slot tailored backpack) forced the game developers to reconsider. They realized that they couldn't just add in 10-slot looms and chop off the extra two slots from the sewing kits without creating a major problem for all the folks who were by tht time using the inexpensive 10 slot sewing kits for bank storage, so in one patch they added the looms, renamed the 10-slot sewing kits from "large sewing kit" to "deluxe sewing kit" and created a new 8 slot "large sewing kit" which took the place of the old one on the merchants.

                  The result? Anybody who was previously using the 10-slot "large sewing kits" before the patch now had 10-slot "deluxe sewing kits" after the patch. (For anybody reading along here who ever wondered where the deluxe sewing kits came from, that's it, by the way. Come to think of it I think I once wrote a sewing kit FAQ which had this info and which used to be posted around here somewhere ... )

                  The people using the 10 slot sewing kits for bank storage weren't inconvenienced by this. So far as I am aware nobody lost any items. A similar solution here might be appropriate, though, of course, it would have to involve all portable tradeskill combine containers. Given all the portable containers created over the years for various special needs (especially all the various sewing, research, fletching and jewelcrafting kits from various eras) this is clearly quite an extensive project for you folks.



                  A few additional thoughts --

                  1. How about making the new tradeskill interface items clickable from the ammo slot? That way people wouldn't lose any bag space while trade skilling. (The gods know we trade skillers need all the bag space we can get when doing a run of combines ).

                  2. Maybe in addition to the portable tradeskill clickies traditionally used in some tradeskills (jewelcrafting, tinkering, fletching, alchemy, poison making, etc.) some stationary clickable items could be added for those skills. They could be located near merchants who sell the supplies for those tradeskills. Tinkerers could get work benches, for example, and fletchers could get fletching stations.

                  3. Collapsible tradeskill containers would now summon a clickie item -- or heck, just make them the clickie item ... or ... geeze ... what would you do with these things? Won't they become completely obsolete under the new system? Or maybe I'm not really understanding the new system you are describing.
                  Uncle Shmoozo
                  "Some of you may remember me ... "

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My biggest question is whether I will have to re-learn any recipes that I already know. The particular recipes I am wondering the most about are the AAAA recipes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Flehmen View Post
                      Bank accounts could always come with "safety deposit boxes" which are 100lb equivalents of, but without the annoying combine button of, the deluxe toolboxes. It wouldn't really matter for money wise as it costs all of 40 plat to fill up your bank with toolboxes. (The second or third thing I do on a new toon)

                      Otherwise, I really like the sound of this change, with one exception... tasks are by their very nature level restrictive. It would compound the problem I have now with the cost-prohibitive/level restrictive combines I make. My level 45 artisan(with charms/old style tropheys) will now have no choice but to level to learn new combines for a tradeskill.

                      On the other hand I've just switched servers and started from scratch in the TSS zones and I am having a blast with that content, so I love to have level appropriate task like missions.

                      Ten.
                      Level restrictions are certainly an option when making tasks. But I also have the option of putting in level 0 which means that it is not level restricted

                      I cam certainly NOT saying there would not be level restricted stuff, but it certainly would not be "all" of it.
                      Ngreth Thergn

                      Ngreth nice Ogre. Ngreth not eat you. Well.... Ngreth not eat you if you still wiggle!
                      Grandmaster Smith 250
                      Master Tailor 200
                      Ogres not dumb - we not lose entire city to froggies

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Liwsa View Post
                        Seems all the new tradeskill changes are be stolen from WoW. In WoW you have to buy a recipe like a spell scroll and scribe it to learn a recipe.
                        EQ2 did it before wow (or close enough to the same time to not have a relative "who is first" as the idea was probably arrived at independently)

                        Though I know about the WoW bit, I really stole the idea from EQ2
                        Ngreth Thergn

                        Ngreth nice Ogre. Ngreth not eat you. Well.... Ngreth not eat you if you still wiggle!
                        Grandmaster Smith 250
                        Master Tailor 200
                        Ogres not dumb - we not lose entire city to froggies

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by uncleshmoozo View Post
                          Um ... I am sure I'm not the only player with several accounts full of characters which are primarily using deluxe toolboxes for bank storage. Actually, some of my "storage mule" characters even use the deluxe toolboxes for general inventory slot containers. They're cheap, they hold giant sized items and they have 10 slots. They're also not terribly heavy.

                          {snip}
                          Long long away. Thanks for the input.

                          What I put down was absolutely just "first thoughts" type of things, and not the detailed step by step checking that would be done before we go through actually implementing such a change, nor the probably many multiple page document that would go with it covering all the risks, details, things that have to change along with it... etc...

                          Please folks. Don;t go jumping on the "bad things" that can happen when it is still just speculation, and not anything with actually true implementation plans. It is still at the "brainstorming" step, not even the "confirmation we will be doing it" step, and even further form the actual "planing" step.

                          And uncleshmoozo, please don;t think I am jumping on you, it is just the second "alarmist" post about this and I want to cut off alarm posts. This is in no way even something currently in actual planning, much less "confirmed" as being done.

                          I guess being totally honest I am feeling you guys have little faith in me when the first thing that comes up is "alarm's" about what WILL go wrong, instead of conversations about the idea itself. But I am not blaming any one person, I would just like to at least have some confidence that I am not out to "screw" folks

                          Yes of course I do make mistakes. Yes of course with many changes, something can happen that does affect some players (the cultural changes incoming), but we are much too soon in this process, if it will even every happen, to stat throw up alarm about what will go wrong.

                          Lets talk about the possibilities of this thing, but not get sidetracked by what can go wrong. A simple "don't forget that the current stuff is being used as bags" is enough, and we can move on to other parts of the conversation on it.
                          Ngreth Thergn

                          Ngreth nice Ogre. Ngreth not eat you. Well.... Ngreth not eat you if you still wiggle!
                          Grandmaster Smith 250
                          Master Tailor 200
                          Ogres not dumb - we not lose entire city to froggies

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bobaten View Post
                            My biggest question is whether I will have to re-learn any recipes that I already know. The particular recipes I am wondering the most about are the AAAA recipes.
                            If you mean in the current cultural changes, yes, but with very few exceptions, you will not have to "experiment", but can just buy a recipe book and click to learn a batch of recipes.

                            The exception is looking to be the seals for the slot 12 augments, which will have to be re-experimented. The rest of the steps for the AAAA are totally unchanged.

                            If you mean in this possible future change to tradeskills? Had not really thought about that part in detail, but probably not. There would not be changes to existing recipes, they would just work with the list interface as they do today. That interface may change in some way to allow for more than 10 items to be shown, but overall, the same interface. The existing recipes would not change, but future recipes could be quite different.
                            Ngreth Thergn

                            Ngreth nice Ogre. Ngreth not eat you. Well.... Ngreth not eat you if you still wiggle!
                            Grandmaster Smith 250
                            Master Tailor 200
                            Ogres not dumb - we not lose entire city to froggies

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ngreth Thergn View Post
                              Long long away. Thanks for the input.
                              You are most welcome.



                              Originally posted by Ngreth Thergn View Post
                              What I put down was absolutely just "first thoughts" type of things, and not the detailed step by step checking that would be done before we go through actually implementing such a change, nor the probably many multiple page document that would go with it covering all the risks, details, things that have to change along with it... etc...

                              Please folks. Don;t go jumping on the "bad things" that can happen when it is still just speculation, and not anything with actually true implementation plans. It is still at the "brainstorming" step, not even the "confirmation we will be doing it" step, and even further form the actual "planing" step.
                              Okay. I'm glad to have been involved in some small, tiny way with the "brainstorming" step.



                              Originally posted by Ngreth Thergn View Post
                              And uncleshmoozo, please don;t think I am jumping on you, it is just the second "alarmist" post about this and I want to cut off alarm posts. This is in no way even something currently in actual planning, much less "confirmed" as being done.
                              No offense taken, and I sure hope none was given.



                              I can fully appreciate where you're coming from. We're all friends here, and talking things through is a part of the process of improvement, both of the game and (more importantly) of ourselves as people. (And goodness knows I could use some improving at times.)



                              Originally posted by Ngreth Thergn View Post
                              I guess being totally honest I am feeling you guys have little faith in me when the first thing that comes up is "alarm's" about what WILL go wrong, instead of conversations about the idea itself. But I am not blaming any one person, I would just like to at least have some confidence that I am not out to "screw" folks

                              Yes of course I do make mistakes. Yes of course with many changes, something can happen that does affect some players (the cultural changes incoming), but we are much too soon in this process, if it will even every happen, to stat throw up alarm about what will go wrong.

                              Lets talk about the possibilities of this thing, but not get sidetracked by what can go wrong. A simple "don't forget that the current stuff is being used as bags" is enough, and we can move on to other parts of the conversation on it.
                              Cool.



                              Just so you know, Ngreth, I actually do have a great deal of confidence in you, your abilities, your knowledge of the game and of its players, and please don't even think that I am ever expressing any doubts about your good intentions. Frankly, Ngreth, I think you being given the job as tradeskill developer was one of the best things that ever happened to the EQ tradeskiller community. I trust you to make intelligent, rational changes and improvements to the game because you, of all people, have a real understanding of the way EQ tradeskillers think.

                              Having said that, it doesn't hurt to have a whole bunch of folks here ready to jump in squeaking like a cage full of hungry guinea pigs (how's that for a mental image, eh? ) to alert you to concerns about possible changes being proposed, even if those ideas are still in the "brainstorming" step or even in the "prebrainstorming" step. After all, there are so many factors involved in even some of the smallest of changes in this game that it wouldn't be impossible for a person to overlook one of them.

                              By the way, I really am looking forward to the cultural recipe changes. It sounds like it's going to involve a number of hugely beneficial changes, not the least of which is a gigantic leveling of the field, and brother, that's a major step in the right direction.

                              Uncle Shmoozo
                              "Some of you may remember me ... "

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