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Mega-Stupid Question: Raw Skill vs Triv and Modded Skill vs Triv

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  • Mega-Stupid Question: Raw Skill vs Triv and Modded Skill vs Triv

    Hello my name is Grimwood and I am an idiot.

    Assumption:

    Item to make is 300 trivial.
    I have 300 raw skill.
    Salvage 3, XXX Mastery 3.
    I should succeed XX%+ of the time.

    Question:
    Item to make is 345 trivial.
    I have 300 raw skill.
    Salvage 3, XXX Mastery 3.
    I have 15% item mod.
    Will I succeed same %?

    I only ask because a PoR era TS aug will evolve on "non-modded trivials".

    Is the modded trivial the same as a raw trivial?
    Squeaky Toy
    300 Smithing 7/7 - 300 Tailoring 7/7 - 300 Jewelcraft 7/7 - 300 Tinkering 7/7 - 300 Pottery 7/7 - 300 Research 7/7 - 300 Baking 7/7 - 300 Brewing 7/7 - 300 Fletching 7/7
    The Meanest Tradeskiller on Cazic Thule

  • #2
    Hello Grimwood, welcome to tradeskillers anonymous....

    I didnt completely understand what the question was but trying my best to figure it out.

    your skill without having any geerlock or trophy equipped is your "real" skill. This is the skill that is used to see if a combine is trivial or not. Only non-trivial combines can count towards the experience of PoR trophies.

    for the succes chance of a combine your adjusted skill is used to calculate your succes chance. If you do not equip a geerlock/trophy your adjusted skill is the same as your "real" skill. If you do equip a geerlock/trophy then your adjusted skill is usualy higher then your "real" skill and if the difference is big enough it could influence your succes chances. (Note that there are certain combines that have a fixed/capped succes chance and for which the above doesnt hold...oow augment recipes are among those). As a rule of thumb, higher adjusted skill means better succes chance.
    Diani The Chocolate Chef
    High Elf Wizard of the 85th order of Brave New World on AB (VS refugee)
    with the artisan charm, the signet of the arcane and the 8th coldain prayer shawl as trophy in the bank

    baking 300 with Master Baker Trophy
    brewing 300 with Master Brewer Trophy
    fishing 200
    fletching 300 with Master Fletcher Trophy
    jewelry 300 with Intricate Jewelers Glass
    pottery 300 with Harry Potter Trophy
    research 300 with Ethereal Quill
    smithing 300 with Master Smither Trophy
    tailoring 300 with Master Tailor Trophy

    Tinkering 293 with Expert Trophy (Dianii Inferioritycomplex, 71 gnome)
    Alchemy 300 with Expert Trophy (Diaani Supermodel, 66 proud pink ogre)

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for the response.

      The only thing that gave me pause in the forming of my question was the fact that I could evolve my JC trophy on the Gem Studded Chains (triv 302?)

      I had had 300 JC quite a while when the new trophies were made available and I someone told me "Hey make the Gem Studded Chains while your new trophy is equipped."

      So I said to myself, "Self, how could that work. With my trophy equipped the 302 trivial was no longer, well, trival."

      But sure enough as I plowed through the 1100-ish combines the trophy evolved to its now fully grown state of 15% even though the combine, with my modded skill, was apparently trivial.

      T0 add to my confusion I would see "Looking for Tinker with 265+ raw skill" leading me to believe that only the raw skill and NOT the modded skill might determine TRUE trivial rates and that the modded skill would provide an additional chance of success (somewhere tween being trivial and "well its close to my skill level so it should be successful.") but not be the final arbiter of true triviality.

      Do you grok?
      Squeaky Toy
      300 Smithing 7/7 - 300 Tailoring 7/7 - 300 Jewelcraft 7/7 - 300 Tinkering 7/7 - 300 Pottery 7/7 - 300 Research 7/7 - 300 Baking 7/7 - 300 Brewing 7/7 - 300 Fletching 7/7
      The Meanest Tradeskiller on Cazic Thule

      Comment


      • #4
        There's a few different things here.

        Your raw skill matters for two things, and only these two things: whether you get a skillup, and whether your trophy gets exp.

        If your raw skill is under the trivial, you have a chance to get a skillup. (If your raw skill is at or over the trivial, obviously you can't get a skillup.) Also, your raw skill determines the corresponding rank for your trophy.

        If your raw skill goes up faster than you're trophy's evolution (in 50 point increments), then your trophy will start skilling up faster; similarly, if you have bad luck and your trophy evolves before your skill reaches the next threshold, it will stop gaining exp until you catch up.

        On a similar note, your trophy will only get exp if the combine trivial is between 1-100 points above your raw skill. The special-case exception is if your skill is 300. In this case, you will get experience for any non-trivial combine. (At least, I'm pretty sure there's an exception for that, but it's been a while since I read up on this.)

        Your modified skill counts for different things: whether you can make a skill-restricted combine, and whether you succeed or fail. If a combine requires a minimum skill to make, it looks for your modified skill. If your modified skill is at or over the threshold, you can make that item. And as we all know, your modified skill plays a big role in whether you succeed or fail a combine.

        Does that help clarify some? Good, because it's time to muddy up the waters a bit. =)

        It turns out skill only matters to a point. Your chance to succeed is capped at 95% for most items, regardless of skill, mods, or mastery. Again, there are exceptions. Some items, like the GM armors and Omens tradeskill augs, have success caps below 95%; the specific values are a matter of debate. So as an example, if an item has a 60% success cap, then on average, you will only succeed 60% of the time when making it, even if your skill is way higher or you have mastery AA.

        Another exception is for items that are trivial 40 or more points below your skill. Your chance to fail goes down gradually, until you're 200 points above the trivial. At that point, the item is no fail. (Remember that a success cap would still override this.)

        Because of the way the success formula works, you'll often hit the maximum chance to succeed well below the trivial. I don't recall off the top of my head where the break point is, but at low trivials, your skill has to be above the trivial to reach the max success point, and at high trivials, your skill can be well below the trivial when you reach max success.
        Sir KyrosKrane Sylvanblade
        Master Artisan (300 + GM Trophy in all) of Luclin (Veeshan)
        Master Fisherman (200) and possibly Drunk (2xx + 20%), not sober enough to tell!
        Lightbringer, Redeemer, and Valiant servant of Erollisi Marr

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks that pretty much summed it up. Makes sense.

          Thanks to you both!
          Squeaky Toy
          300 Smithing 7/7 - 300 Tailoring 7/7 - 300 Jewelcraft 7/7 - 300 Tinkering 7/7 - 300 Pottery 7/7 - 300 Research 7/7 - 300 Baking 7/7 - 300 Brewing 7/7 - 300 Fletching 7/7
          The Meanest Tradeskiller on Cazic Thule

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KyrosKrane
            On a similar note, your trophy will only get exp if the combine trivial is between 1-100 points above your raw skill. The special-case exception is if your skill is 300. In this case, you will get experience for any non-trivial combine. (At least, I'm pretty sure there's an exception for that, but it's been a while since I read up on this.)
            The actual special case is that for the purposes of trophy experience(only) trivials over 350 are considered to be 350.

            Comment


            • #7
              "Another exception is for items that are trivial 40 or more points below your skill. Your chance to fail goes down gradually, until you're 200 points above the trivial. At that point, the item is no fail. (Remember that a success cap would still override this.)"

              This is also one that considers RAW skill only, not modified skill. So that even with 300 skill you will always have a chance at failing anything over 100 trivial level. I have seen plenty of failures on items that have trivial levels between 101 and 130, even with 336/345 modified skill.



              Gorse

              Comment


              • #8
                Throwing another caveat onto the pile... If you're doing the Aid Grimmel quest, he requires a raw skill of 220 in each tradeskill before allowing you to progress.
                -- Mewkus: 2100 dings on the server formerly known as Solusek Ro
                try: Inventory/Flags/Spells tracker program - (sample output)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GrimwoodCT
                  T0 add to my confusion I would see "Looking for Tinker with 265+ raw skill" leading me to believe . . .
                  Could have been that the combine that he wants made has a minimum skill requirement of 265 on it, meaning that you must have tinkering at 265 before you can even attempt it.




                  Comment


                  • #10
                    More likely..

                    Originally posted by Nolrog
                    Could have been that the combine that he wants made has a minimum skill requirement of 265 on it, meaning that you must have tinkering at 265 before you can even attempt it.
                    More likely, the person looked up the trivial for the combine in question here on EQ Traders.. and then advertised for someone with at least that skill level.

                    Most players have no idea about any of the things discussed in this thread -- they just look at the site for the trivial and that's what they want to see you have. It's amazing how many times I have had to explain about the (supposed) 60% success-rate-cap on DoN cultural smithing/tailoring to people wanting combines, especially when they make a fuss wanting people *only* someone with 300 skill & salvage 3 & mastery 3 for those combines.
                    Kellan, 95 human cleric, Crimson Tempest, Drinal server
                    300 + 15% trophy: Baking, Blacksmithing, Brewing, Fletching, Jewelcraft, Pottery, Priest Research, Tailoring
                    300 + 15% trophy on alts: Alchemy, Poisonmaking, Wood Elf Blacksmithing/Tailoring

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