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  • Poison system idea?

    Instead of just adding more and more recipes for new poisons, I was wondering if it would be possible to re-work the way poisons are made..again.

    I sent a document to the developers but I'd like to see feedback from players so I know if my ideas are making things better or worse.. here is what I sent:

    **********************************************
    Customizable Poison System

    Let me start out by expressing my wish to help add to the game and not just try to get things in there that would benefit me and no one else. I have played EverQuest on and off for the past five years and have a strong desire to give more than just a monthly fee. This poison system I have been reworking and changing for many months, and was hoping a dev might be interested in what I have to show. (Going for a game design degree and such, I am hoping to get experience in some part of the field as time goes on. Who knows, maybe someday I’ll be in charge of the Rogue class in EQ!)

    The way poisons are used now is very encouraging. Having a timed buff that adds a chance to proc the poison instead of a one shot deal is both ideal and worth acquiring. This area of the poison ability I would not change for anything. I do however sometimes wonder if the Rogue class will get no other skills for use in combat, and if not I would like to see what we have already (poisons) be taken to the next step.

    What I have in mind is a different way to go about deciding what poison to use. Everyone will have a different idea or style that they would like to incorporate into their poison usage and this might be the way to let them express their poisonous needs!

    Combines: What can be added and what can be made stronger.
    Tricks of the Trade: What will be needed to make these poisons?
    Components: What does what?

    I have yet to find out what programming is needed in order to make this sort of system, so I do not know if each possible combine will need to be put in or if the system can read what is in the container when combine is pressed and make the appropriate adjustments. I will do the necessary research and find out if I am needed to!

    What I have so far is the idea to make a general poison that will have 0% of every effect. During the combine the system will read what is in the container and fill in the percents and integers needed to form the correct poison.
    Combines

    Much like the current system, this would use a: vial; suspension; resin; and the master sketch. The difference starts here, where the other components are added. With four slots taken already with the key items, there would be six left in the ten slot marble mortar. Depending on components chosen you can create a customized poison instead of a higher tier of the same type (damage, dot, snare, slow, etc) and mix them together. Examples (random poison items used):
     Phosphorous Powder – Damage
     Ocean Ink – Mana Damage
     Plague Mites – DoT
     Wax Flower – Negative Dexterity
     Nodding Blue Lily – Negative Agility
     Golden Ember Powder – Stun
    These in a recipe would make the lowest level poison for these types added into one. 15 Damage + 20 Mana Damage + 5 tick 5 damage DoT + Negative 5 Dex + Negative 5 Agi + 0.1 second Stun.

    Now with the ability to add several components together for a custom poison I was trying to next come up with a way that would allow for poisons that can be made from the initial gain of Make Poison, but get more powerful at higher levels when you can increase the skill. What I came up with was having different tiers of the actual component, such as:
     Phosphorous Powder + Resin = T1 Damage (15 damage per proc)
     T1 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin = T2 Damage (30 damage)
     T2 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin = T3 Damage (45 damage)
     T3 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin = T4 Damage (60 damage)
     T4 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin = T5 Damage (75 damage)
     T5 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin = T6 Damage (90 damage)
     Ocean Ink + Resin = T1 M Damage (20 m damage per proc)
     T1 M Damage + Ocean Ink + Resin = T2 M Damage (40 m damage)
     T2 M Damage + Ocean Ink + Resin = T3 M Damage (60 m damage)
     T3 M Damage + Ocean Ink + Resin = T4 M Damage (80 m damage)
     T4 M Damage + Ocean Ink + Resin = T5 M Damage (100 m damage)
     T5 M Damage + Ocean Ink + Resin = T6 M Damage (120 m damage)

    So each component added to the main combine may have different levels of effectiveness. Each tier of the component can be tagged “Lore” so it wouldn’t be possible to make a super poison, and I myself would make the Master Sketch necessary for T5 and T6. Naturally the difficulty of creating the “very” useful and effective poisons, such as: using T6, T5, T4, T3, T2, and T1 Damage components in a final combine for a 315 damage proc; or T6, T5, T4, T3, T2, and T1 M Damage components that would make a 420 mana damage proc; or T6, T5, T4 Damage and T6, T5, T4 M Damage for a 225 damage/300 mana damage proc, would be pretty high and hard to do. A bit time consuming as well with all of the combines needed (but very worth it with success).

    Tricks of the Trade

    As mentioned before, making it possible to make components into a higher tier by making them more deadly is where the fun begins. In order to make a 315 damage poison, you will need the following for combines:

    Advanced Poison Vial: Peridot + Sealed Poison Vial or
    Zombie Skin + Purified Water + Advanced Vial Sketch + Block of Magic Clay
    Mercury Resin: Gnomish Spirits + Mercuric Ore
    Celestial Suspension: Ethereal Suspension + Celestial Essence
    Master Sketch
    T6 Damage (x1): T5 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin + Sketch
    T5 Damage (x2): T4 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin + Sketch
    T4 Damage (x3): T3 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin
    T3 Damage (x4): T2 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin
    T2 Damage (x5): T1 Damage + Phosphorous Powder + Resin
    T1 Damage (x6): Phosphorous Powder + Resin

    Aside from normal components (vial, sketch, suspension, etc), and assuming the test subject is my character (level 65, poison mastery 3, master sketch, 250 make poison, assassin’s seal with +5% make poison) the creator of the poison would need to gather 21 Phosphorous Powders in order to make this one dose of poison. For a 10 dose they would need 210 Phosphorous Powders. This would make for some nasty farming, but when it comes time to use the poison I myself would love to add on a 305 damage proc for all my work.

    The trick is to find a trivial level for each combine that makes it difficult to make, but not impossible if you have the appropriate skills, items, and Alternate Advancement abilities. What also would be a nice implementation would be adding a Duration Modifier for poison buffs into the Poison Mastery AA, or a new AA for just the Buff Duration like other classes have.

    Components

    For a fully customizable poison system, there needs to be many components and effects that can be changed around in any given recipe. I have made a list of effects that could be useful for both casual and extreme uses. The Direct Damage would be a base for the other Damage types to rise from. The more you know about what you’re poisoning, the more damage you can do, right?
     Direct Damage (general damage) Max: 315
    T1: 15, T2: 30, T3: 45, T4: 60, T5: 75, T6: 90
     Summoned Damage (x2 direct) Max: 630
    T1: 30, T2: 60, T3: 90, T4: 120, T5: 150, T6: 180
     Undead Damage (x2 direct) Max: 630
    T1: 30, T2: 60, T3: 90, T4: 120, T5: 150, T6: 180
     Animal Damage (x2 direct) Max: 630
    T1: 30, T2: 60, T3: 90, T4: 120, T5: 150, T6: 180
     Mana Damage (x2 direct) Max: 630
    T1: 30, T2: 60, T3: 90, T4: 120, T5: 150, T6: 180
     Damage over Time (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: 315
    T1: 5, T2: 10, T3: 20, T4: 40, T5: 80, T6: 160
     Strength Debuff (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: -105
    T1: -5, T2: -10, T3: -15, T4: -20, T5: -25, T6: -30
     Stamina Debuff (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: -105
    T1: -5, T2: -10, T3: -15, T4: -20, T5: -25, T6: -30
     Agility Debuff (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: -105
    T1: -5, T2: -10, T3: -15, T4: -20, T5: -25, T6: -30
     Dexterity Debuff (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: -105
    T1: -5, T2: -10, T3: -15, T4: -20, T5: -25, T6: -30
     Intelligence Debuff (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: -105
    T1: -5, T2: -10, T3: -15, T4: -20, T5: -25, T6: -30
     Wisdom Debuff (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: -105
    T1: -5, T2: -10, T3: -15, T4: -20, T5: -25, T6: -30
     Charisma Debuff (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: -105
    T1: -5, T2: -10, T3: -15, T4: -20, T5: -25, T6: -30
     Movement Speed Debuff (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: 100%
    T1: 10%, T2: 20%, T3: 30%, T4: 40%, T5: 50%, T6: 60%
     Attack Speed Debuff (5 ticks, 30 seconds) Max: 100%
    T1: 5%, T2: 10%, T3: 15%, T4: 20%, T5: 25%, T6: 30%
     Stun (measured in seconds) Max: 2.1 seconds.
    T1: 0.1, T2: 0.2, T3: 0.3, T4: 0.4, T5: 0.5, T6: 0.6

    ************************************************** ***

    Well that's it.. and of course the poisons would be no drop. Thoughts? :\
    Talisen the Silent
    65 Rogue - Quellious

  • #2
    "the creator of the poison would need to gather 21 Phosphorous Powders in order to make this one dose of poison. For a 10 dose they would need 210 Phosphorous Powders. This would make for some nasty farming, but when it comes time to use the poison I myself would love to add on a 305 damage proc for all my work."

    NO

    one of the main things that come up time and time again, is the ammount of reagents we need to farm/sub combine/spend time on for a damage boost that wouldnt even make Drunder Ogre fart.

    ever use mind melt on mobs? thats a 555dd and that dont even make a dent in most mobs. yes i know MM is is a one shot before you get narky and offended, but its still our best *bang* dd, waiting on RNG procs of lower ammounts to build up just dont do jack, we have evaide so agro isnt really a problem. MM is more or less a single backstab even on a crit, we now have triple backstab (i wont go into the dps boost that gave us or the fire rate) so you see why your dd number on a top of the line grandmaster poisoner proc is woefully low at 305 (crit of 610). thats with the ammount of stuff you would have us farming. no thank you.

    mobs are either hitting for dps out the ass (hey look at that 1200dps charmed pooka go lol i know bad but with snare they are a laugh) or have enough hp that using a poison doesnt even make them blink.

    dd poisons? you wouldnt even get agro off 1k+ poisons that you couldnt shake. thats a crit MM btw if you want to try it, i do that and the mob doesnt even turn from MA.

    it has to be worth using the skill for farming, agro isnt really a problem, and if it is then dont use that poison till you get a better tank.

    for a Grandmaster level 65 we'll be going on level 70 soon poisoner, i want effects that make people go "$^$^%£%$ did you see that? wow i wanna start a rogue so i can do that to"

    top end procs

    DoTs 2-3k
    DD 1k+
    Resist debuff 50+ to all
    Mana drain 1-2k
    slow 50+%

    next time you use a proc poison on a mob, count how many times it goes off even with aa boost. then look at the procs im talking about again, i dont think they are way out of line for top end poison results.
    they have to be worth it, as they are atm well it just isnt.
    Wyloc Wormwood
    70th level Freelance Assassin
    Terris Thule

    Comment


    • #3
      My damage amounts were only examples, the system itself on how to customize the poisons for several effects is what I wanted feedback on.

      But seeing as you're so enthusiastic about having wizard like procs..

      With JTFB and an added disease proc, and Ethereal Destroyer with an added poison proc, and my usual 125dd shissar bites, and maxed weapon affinity and virulent venom..yes I tend to proc like friggin mad in any fight. I still manage agro easily as long as the tank knows what they're doing.

      What you're asking for with 1000+ direct damage procs will not get done, period. That would completely overpower rogues, especially if it is as easy to make as current poisons. Mind Melt is a bad example to use seeing as it's last good use was the 9th coldain ring quest. Yes I used it when we got our proc crit AA and yes I got a crit for 1110, I was very excited..but I hardly expect to have a chance to hit 1000+ many times over 15 minutes when I have triple backstab. Also the farmability of mt death mineral salts is rather rough for anyone solo.

      Phosphorous Powders: Lower Guk, Sol Ro Tower, Plane of Fire. Anytime they are dropped, which is very often, there are at least two. I myself have at least three bags full for future shissar bites and whenever some are used the spot gets filled quickly.

      Easily farmed components and as I mentioned in the post the ability to make the buff last longer makes for a much better use of a 315dd if you care to take the time to get it. The DoT number I posted was per tick, not total. So 315 over 30 seconds, 5 ticks.. what, 1575 total?

      As I said at the top, the system is what I want feedback on, not the actual numbers that are just examples. Please make another post because I want to know if the ability to make custom poisons is something you would like:P It doesn't have to be done EXACTLY like this! The point is to make the rogue class more diverse in what it can do with poisons, not to make them able to ks an entire raid with their damage.
      Last edited by Talisen; 06-01-2004, 01:27 PM.
      Talisen the Silent
      65 Rogue - Quellious

      Comment


      • #4
        wizard like procs? hahah im sorry what level wizard would that be mate? perhaps your happy with our top poisons doing damage like a cheep LDoSuck aug, im not. im talking about top end effects of grandmaster tradeskilling poisoners at 65+. you have your opinon i have mine and i guess we'll leave it at that unless we turn this into a rant thread which would serve no point.

        ok as requested you want feedback.

        while your idea has merit in the tailoring of poisons thus alowing the rogue to design a proc that he would use, i feel the ammount of reagents req to do this (unless its coupled with a full overhall like scraping vials & suspensions) makes us spend even more time farming. now that is a huge downside which a lot of rogues think we got the short end of the stick on. do shaman have to farm mobs for reagents to make potions? nope an npc does that and sells them in his shop.
        now if poison reagents were vendor brought but you also were able to farm them (if thats your cup o' tea) then your system would be looked on better imo. at least with the UI (as the poison i use is a quest one i dont really use the ui for poisons, lol that and im so used to doing it the old way for years haha) it cuts down on the clicking.

        anyway from the tone of your last post, it looked like you thought i was jumping on you. i wasnt and im sorry if you took it that way. i just dont want to see dev time wasted in on poison upgrade that rogues still wont use. many feel that "why should i use a tradeskill" so my showing them the top end Wow you can say THIS is how good they can be.
        who knows perhaps rogues may even be able to dump locustlure with a good procing slow poison to use when needs must (we pay for our effects on poisons its not free like mana)
        Wyloc Wormwood
        70th level Freelance Assassin
        Terris Thule

        Comment


        • #5
          That's why I'm asking for feedback:P

          What I want is something most everyone can agree on. A great deal of the current rogues don't like the way poisons are done, I'm just trying to step forward with something new.

          How about instead of a resin used to make a different tier of the component, a store bought item is used for the combo. To keep it simple we'll call the store bought parts t1, t2, t3, t4, t5, and t6. Each increasing in cost as it gets higher.. Now for the combo it might go something like..for a t6 damage you just combine the phosphorous powder and the t6 instead of going through each tier. Would that work?

          Ice Spear of Solist does about 1200..so I guess a level 59/60 wizard is what I was thinking of, or a 65 that still uses the spell since it was a great mana spent vs damage last I saw. And yes I stop a bit low for the top end DD but that was because asking too much usually ends in getting ignored, especially considering the poison buff dd high is 125 now, or 175 if you count the undead. Ask for something that they might consider and it might get thought about. Ask to have your procs raised to rival spells and you'll get nothing.

          Any other rogues out there want to jump in on this? I really really want to get something..ANYTHING done to our poisons. After having Make Poison at 250 for three years I'm getting rather tired of not having many useful options.

          edit: No I'm not happy with LDoN augs doing the same damage as our top buff poisons. It makes me wonder why we even have the skill if they're just going to keep adding ways to not need them.

          ~Talisen the Silent
          Last edited by Talisen; 06-01-2004, 06:20 PM.
          Talisen the Silent
          65 Rogue - Quellious

          Comment


          • #6
            aye the 125dd proc was so weak really as to make even us diehard poisoners wonder why even bother. i would dig up some dps results but Derr is the top man on that job, he posted them on SH as i recall, pitty he quit.

            so ok lets go back to basics, what are the main problems with poisons and poison making? why dont all rogues use our class skill? what can be done to make them better and give other rogues an insentive to use this class skill?


            why do we need vials and suspensions at a cost as well as farm for reagents? carrying that stuff around takes up a lot of space when your on the move. combining the herbs/bilesacs/powers should be enough in our morters and coffin bottles.

            vendor brought poison reagents just like alchemy please, farm mob drop stuff to keep costs down if you want to, but not many rogues like spending hours of their play time trash hunting for something that raises their damage by 2dps.
            right click summon poison on stanos chan legs, well that was a bad idea imo. but i wont dwell on that, whats done is done but no more please.

            old poisons take up room
            adv poisons even 10shot take up space if you are burning through them evey 15mins.
            have poisons if they are a proc last way longer or have the buff stays on untill clicked off for a differnt type of poison to be applied. with this then cost of making them becomes more reasonable.

            effects need to be a hell of a lot better, lower resist proc oh come on that was so bad it was laughable. lowering resists by 5 haha 30+ at least as kunark posion.
            even just use the old kunark effects as procs, considering they are ment to be Advanced poisons. but anyway you know my feelings on poison damage, it should be something to make a rogue that spent time getting to 250 and doing the quests someone you dont want to mess with.

            lets hash this out guys, so Ab and Mud can see what we really want, from rogues that have spent a very long time doing this, away from the general bickering that tends to crowd other poison threads on forums.

            *bah typos... but it is 2am*
            Last edited by Wyloc Wormwood; 06-01-2004, 08:06 PM.
            Wyloc Wormwood
            70th level Freelance Assassin
            Terris Thule

            Comment


            • #7
              Well just afew things,


              1.) Have poisens last longer.

              2.) Make them not not a spell casting , thus cannot be silenced.

              3.) Have some viable for high end content,

              4.) Make some really hard to aquire, unique persee.



              regards

              Wyntyrsfool

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