OoW poison analysis

[Mitsune Foxfire]

The list has been updated to the changes from the last patch.

I have compiled this list of the OoW poison to help find some broken poison effects. Seeing the Freezing Feedback correction in the last patch I think this might help Ngreth if he plans to do some corrections before the still far away poison rewamp.

I have grouped the poisons by their effect type. There are 7 types of OoW poisons with 2 tiers for each type. I added PoP/LoY poisons of the same type to make the design visible and point out the (possibly) correct effect the designer might have had in mind.

There are three groups of problems with OoW poisons:

1. Basic flaws in posion effects and missing parts.
2. The overall strenght of the effects.
3. The availibility and pricing of the drops needed for the poisons.

I am focusing on point 1 here, the obvious flaws. The list can also be used to argue about point 2, but that's another story.

All data is taken form eqtc, lucy, allakhazam.
format: expansion/tier: poison name (trivial) Req. lvl - effect = added proc = poison effect

type: lifetap
LoY: Anemone feedback (180) Req. lvl 1 - effect: Anemone Feedback = add proc: Anemone Feedback = lifetap 1-20 hp
OoW tier 1: Bitter Feedback (196) Req. lvl 60 - effect: Bitter Feedback = add proc: Bitter Feedback = lifetap 1-50 hp
OoW tier 2: Freezing Feedback (216) Req. lvl 66 - effect: Freezing Feedback = add proc: Freezing Feedback = lifetap 1-75 hp
>>> This set does look ok.

type: damage over time
PoP tier 1: Withering Flesh (231) Req. lvl 46 - effect: Lesser Vein Rot Poison = add proc: Withering Flesh = Increase Poison Counter by 3, Decrease Hitpoints by 24 per tick, 1 ticks @L1 to 1.5 mins @L30 (360 total dmg)
PoP tier 2: Wasted Flesh (322) Req. lvl 53 - effect: Vein Rot Poison = add proc: Wasted Flesh = Increase Poison Counter by 9, Decrease Hitpoints by 36 per tick, 1 ticks @L1 to 1.5 mins @L30 (540 total dmg)
OoW tier 1: Heart Rot (?) Req. lvl 60 - effect: Heart Rot = add proc: Heart Rot = Increase Poison Counter by 9, Decrease Hitpoints by 40 per tick, Duration: 1 ticks @L1 to 1.5 mins @L30 (600 total dmg)
OoW tier 2: Flesh Rot (268) Req. lvl 66 - effect: Flesh Rot = add proc: Flesh Rot = Increase Poison Counter by 9, Decrease Hitpoints by 45 per tick, Duration: 1 ticks @L1 to 1.5 mins @L30 (675 dmg total)
>>> This set does look ok. Problem here is the Heart Rot poison, which has not been created in game so far. It seems one of the needed items for the recipe is not in game.

type: mana drain
PoP tier 1: Mental Burn (231) Req. lvl 46 - effect: Lesser Destroy Poison = add proc: Mental Burn = Decrease Mana by 150
PoP tier 2: Mental Implosion (322) Req. lvl 53 - effect: Destroy Mind Poison = add proc: Mental Implosion = Decrease Mana by 300
OoW tier 1: Mind Stir (302) Req. lvl 60 - effect: Mind Stir = add proc: Mind Stir = Decrease Mana by 375
OoW tier 2: Mental Discord (322) Req. lvl 66 - effect: Mental Discord = add proc: Mental Discord = Decrease Mana by 450
>>> This set does look ok.

type: direct damage
PoP tier 1: Sting of the Shissar (231) Req. lvl 46 - effect: Lesser Strike Poison = add proc: Sting of the Shissar = Decrease Hitpoints by 75
PoP tier 2: Bite of the Shissar (322) Req. lvl 53 - effect: Strike Poison = add proc: Bite of the Shissar = Decrease Hitpoints by 125
OoW tier 1: Bloodpyre (324) Req. lvl 60 - effect: Bloodpyre = add proc: Bloodpyre = Decrease Hitpoints by 140
OoW tier 2: Heart Blaze (351) Req. lvl 66 - effect: Heart Blaze = add proc: Heart Blaze = Decrease Hitpoints by 155
>>> This set does look ok.

type: hate reduction
PoP tier 1: Confusing Whisper (250<x<=289) Req. lvl 46 - Lesser Remiss Poison = add Proc: Confusing Whisper = Decrease Hate by 150
PoP tier 2: Dreams of Drusella (322) Req. lvl 53 - Remiss Poison = add proc: Dreams of Drusella = Decrease Hate by 250
OoW tier 1: Seeping Haze (335) Req. lvl 60 - Seeping Haze = add proc: Seeping Haze = Decrease Hate by 300
OoW tier 2: Mind Shock (351) Req. lvl 66 - Mind Shock = add proc: Mind Shock = Decrease Hate by 350
>>> This set does look ok.

type: direct damage + stun
PoP tier 1: Bixie Sting (231) Req. lvl 46 - effect: Lesser Concussion Poison = add proc: Bixie Sting = Decrease Hitpoints by 50, Stun(1.00 sec)
PoP tier 2: Scoriae Bite (322) Req. lvl 53 - effect: Concussion Poison = add proc: Scoriae Bite = Decrease Hitpoints by 75, Stun(1.00 sec/65)
OoW tier 1: Spinning Confusion (340) Req. lvl 60 - effect: Spinning Confusion = add proc: Spinning Confusion = Decrease Hitpoints by 85, Stun(1.00 sec/65)
OoW tier 2: Spinal Disorientation (351) Req. lvl 66 - effect: Spinal Disorientation = add proc: Spinal Disorientation = Decrease Hitpoints by 95, Stun(1.00 sec/65)
>>> This set does look ok.

type: direct damage + damage over time
PoP tier 1: Minor Irritation (231) Req. lvl 46 - effect: Lesser Corruption Poison = add proc: Minor Irritation = Increase Poison Counter by 3, Decrease HP when cast by 35, Decrease Hitpoints by 42 per tick, (total dmg DD 35 + DoT 210)
PoP tier 2: Oozing Irritation (322) Req. lvl 53 - effect: Corruption Poison = add proc: Oozing Irritation = Increase Poison Counter by 9, Decrease HP when cast by 55, Decrease Hitpoints by 66 per tick (total dmg DD 55 + DoT 330)
OoW tier 1: Vascular Inferno (347) Req. lvl 60 - effect: Vascular Inferno = add proc: Vascular Inferno = Increase Poison Counter by 9, Decrease HP when cast by 65, Decrease Hitpoints by 73 per tick (total dmg DD 65 + 365 DoT)
OoW tier 2: Systemic Destruction (356) Req. lvl 66 - effect: Systemic Destruction = add proc: Systemic Destruction = Increase Poison Counter by 9, Decrease HP when cast by 75, Decrease Hitpoints by 80 per tick (total dmg DD 75 + 400 DoT)
>>> This set does look ok.

strength multiplicators used for the design:
When I was suggesting effect corrections, I based them on the multiplication factors used in the design. The strength (mostly damage) of the poisons is growing with their tier: PoP1 < PoP2 < OoW1 < OoW2. Looking at the numbers they look like this now (PoP1-PoP2, PoP2-OoW1, OoW1-OoW2):
dot: 1.50 - 1.11 - 1.12
dd + dot: 1.57 - 1.12 - 1.10
dd (+ stun): 1.50 - 1.13 - 1.11
dd: 1.66 - 1.12 - 1.10
hate: 1.66 - 1.20 - 1.16
mana: 2.00 - 1.25 - 1.20
(lifetap: 2.50 - 1.50 (LoY, so no 2 lower tiers))

[likenew]

also to note, aside from many of the same proc effects, like multiple 125dd procs at varied trivials, which i'm sure was only put in for different skilling routes...

many believe poisons just don't do enough damage anyway.

i compiled a list on safehouse of all poisons, old and new, regents needed, trivials, and there effect.

http://thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24049

in case you missed it ngreth. made it just for you!

[Verdandi]

Seeing the Freezing Feedback correction in the last patch I think this might help Ngreth if he plans to do some corrections before the still far away poison rewamp.

Just for clarification, I think this was a result of a note I sent him pointing out this error. I forward him little bugs like that as I stumble over them, so he at least knows about them even if they can't be fixed right away. (I'm not entirely reliable on this, which is why I do NOT want people just posting bugs here rather than /bugging or posting them to the SOE boards.) That's why only the one got fixed, since I happened to encounter it but not the others.

Not that you shouldn't persevere, certainly! I just don't want you to read too much into that one fix. Just keep in mind that with a revamp looming ahead somewhere...sometime...smaller adjustments are much more likely to get implemented in the meantime than big things.

So /bug those other things that still need fixing. Ngreth DOES get them!

And please remember that these boards are for talking to the rest of the tradeskill community. If you really only want to talk to Ngreth, post on Artisan's Way, SOE's tradeskill forum.

[Mitsune Foxfire]

Just for clarification, ...

I am aware of the board rules and the reasons for them. For several reasons I did decided to post this here:
- Last week Ngreth did ask for rogue support regarding poisons on the Safehouse boards (rogue community). As I understood it, he (as a non-rogue) needed structured input. See also likenew's post which is also a reply to Ngreth's call for help.
- I do /bug whatever I can but it is nearly impossible to /bug something like a design flaw without drawing the whole picture with a lot of numbers - and I simply can't do that in the simple text window inside EQ (is there even copy/paste support?). Same problem if you wanna discuss flaws in a whole set of items.
- So where to post a writeup on poisons? The SOE forums are for sure a hot spot but then again a class skill is pretty much lost in the generic tradeskill forum. I had to decide between eqtc or the safehouse (both with poison forums) and I picked this one.

If it's a problem, I will move this to the safehouse. I admit I bended the rules a bit but then again I am a rogue

[likenew]

i post things just for ngreth all the time, like copy my main to test server so i can help you test poisons that you give me!

stuff like that, you know, subtle.

[Ngreth Thergn]

And that fix was more that the wrong spell was attached item, than that the spell itself was not correct.

Unfortunately Prathun is the spells guy, and I cannot change spells, just what spell is attached to what item.

If there are more of those can you highlight them out of the list and I can look into it.

And I can forward the spells that themselves are off to Maddoc and Prathun.

[likenew]

did you see the list i made for you ngreth?

[Mitsune Foxfire]

And that fix was more that the wrong spell was attached item, than that the spell itself was not correct.

Unfortunately Prathun is the spells guy, and I cannot change spells, just what spell is attached to what item.

If there are more of those can you highlight them out of the list and I can look into it.

Maybe I am missing something here but the things I highlighted include 2 poisons that have a wrong spell attached exactly like the one you have changed with the last patch (Bitter Feedback and Mind Shock, for both are spells in game with the same name). Plus there is one broken recipe (Heart Rot) that is missing an item to create it and I was under the impression such things are also handled by the tradeskill team.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Maybe I am missing something here but the things I highlighted include 2 poisons that have a wrong spell attached exactly like the one you have changed with the last patch (Bitter Feedback and Mind Shock, for both are spells in game with the same name). Plus there is one broken recipe (Heart Rot) that is missing an item to create it and I was under the impression such things are also handled by the tradeskill team.

yup.

I just did not read the list that way, and basically asked for a highlight of those (which you just gave.)

Maybe I interpreted the list wrong. it looked to me like some of it was comments that the spells themselves were a bit off. (I.E. the spells themselves did not progress as they should)

[Mitsune Foxfire]

yup.

I just did not read the list that way, and basically asked for a highlight of those (which you just gave.)

np. I did mix the wrong attached ones with the imho wrong coded ones (wrong values). Thanks for looking into our mortar & pestles.

[Turlo Lomon]

Thank you for all the hard work, Mitsune Foxfire. I have been a bit overwelmed lately with RL stuff and haven't gotten around to analyzing all of the Omens poisons yet.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I sent the spell bugs to Prathun to look at. When they are all cleared up I will fix the item attachment of the effects so that we don't get half a fix.

[Mitsune Foxfire]

I sent the spell bugs to Prathun to look at. When they are all cleared up I will fix the item attachment of the effects so that we don't get half a fix.

Wow, I see some changes in the patch notes. Still patching and I can't log in but it seems Prathun did help us rogues a bit. Thanks Ngreth!

[Ngreth Thergn]

He still curses me for that

Along with the bugs to the effects, he found scads of text bugs in poisons (not a huge deal, but something that bothers him...) so he fixed them too

[BlackIslandRose]

Poison Saves .. uh, I mean kills!

also to note, aside from many of the same proc effects, like multiple 125dd procs at varied trivials, which i'm sure was only put in for different skilling routes...

This was my guess as well.

many believe poisons just don't do enough damage anyway.!

To me, it's not just that poisons don't do enough damage, although it is part of the problem. I see the major problem as poison vs saves ... Mobs in the past 3 expansions have all saves (especially poison) cranked so high that you feel honored when something DOES hit... be it a nuke spell, debuff, posion proc, or whatever. It seems like less than one in 20 procs will actually cause damage, and then the mob's damage reduction kicks in. In the case of a Snare poison, it lands so very few times that you just get tired of snatching the agg, dying, and returning agg to tank couple rounds later after yer dead.

No rogue I know above level 50 on Prexus actually bothers to use poison anymore, except as a skill-up path to make augments. I use them on Graylaw (currently level 58 gnome rogue) on lower-level mobs just for the entertainment factor.