Tweet
There are currently 5 levels of armor, 6 levels of symbols, and 7 levels of raid seals. A level 75 set of armor is supposedly on the table, so let's assume for the moment they come out with same restrictions as the exalted symbols.
Armor:
Simple: req 15 rec 20
Ornate: req 35 rec 40
Intricate: req 55 rec 60
Elaborate: req 65 rec 70
LEVEL 75 ARMOR: req 70? rec 74?
Elegant: req 75 rec 79
Symbols:
Blessed: req 15 rec 20
Revered: req 35 rec 40
Sacred: req 55 rec 60
Eminent: req 65 rec 69
Exalted: req 70 rec 74
Sublime: req 75 req 79
Looks alright so far? After all, these all came out in the same tiers with the same expansions (DoN and SoF).
But look at the seals:
Chronal seal: req 65
Discordant seal: req 65
Bazu seal: req 70
Last Blood seal: req 70
Serpent's seal: req 75
Sunshard seal: req 75
Faycite seal: req 80
Anyone else see a problem with this?
If last blood goes with the "70 set" then what about bazu/discordant/chronal? Level 70 required item with the level 60 "set"? Level 65 required items with the level 40 and 20 "sets"?
Sunshard ore makes level 60 recommended level 55 required armor. They have foci that max at level 65. You can make a 55 ac 80 hp breastplate out of it.
Intricate BPs + sacred chest symbol are also level 60 recommended and level 55 required armor. It makes 51 ac 95 hp armor with room for a type 12.
If Bazu stone is part of this "set", it not only has level 65 required on it, with level 70 raid foci on it (many of them anguish level), but 30 ac and 180 hp.
Obviously, they aren't a set. The gear is not comparable. Why? Because they aren't a set and these "sets" are a new construction with no basis in the itemization history.
If last blood seals are reduced in stats, and the stats moved to elaborate, you either have to nerf the bazu seals enough to make them sure you don't end up making elaborate + eminent + bazu better than it was in the first place (which was **** close to last blood already).
Let's say 10 ac and 100 hp is taken from last blood and moved to the armor. You would have to reduce bazu by the same amount to keep the balance with last blood. But are you going to be willing to move those stats to the intricate/sacred such that the level 60 recommended bp + symbol only goes up to 195 hp? That's pushing plane of time hp.
What about discordant then? Its 120 hp. Even if you let it get 20 hp close to bazu, you're still talking about putting 80 more hp on level 40 armor to and symbol to compensate.
Because all these symbols were really level 70 gear in the first place, it is not simply a matter of nerfing last bloods. You cannot just move the stats to the armor without imbalancing that stuff worse than this stuff currently is imbalanced.
This is one of the reasons (along with common sense) that you should take 100 hp off the sublime symbols and 70 hp off the exalted, and 7-15 ac (depending on slot) from the elegant armor, and THEN create groupable symbols that are created the exact same way as the raid seals are, but using the cheap container that you use for chronal and discordant.
Leave last blood, bazu, discordant, and chronal as is.
Add 30 hp to serpent's seal.
Add 5 ac and 60 hp to sunshard seal.
Add 10 ac and 100 hp to faycite seal.
Create 2 levels of group stones that use the cheap aaaa container in order to create:
15 ac 120 hp seals with level 75 req level and level 75 spell foci capped at the 30% level
25 ac 175 hp seals with lvel 80 req level and level 80 spell foci capped at the 40% level
Those percentages are based on damage foci, mix and match as needed obviously, it was an example.
Right now:
elegant bp + exalted symbol = 130 ac 345 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbol = 130 ac 410 hp
elegant bp + exalted symbol + last blood = 175 ac 555 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbol + last blood = 175 ac 620 hp
For reference:
droppable plate tier 1 bp: 115 ac 330 hp
tier 2 bp = tier 1 bp + steam core from tier 3 named = 135 ac 440 hp
tier 3 bp = tier 2 bp + named crystalos drop = 159 ac 550 hp
Demiplane BP = 143 ac 375 hp
Paladin TSS raid bp = 156 ac 480 hp
Solteris paladin bp = 172 ac 575 hp
All of the non-cultural except demi and tss bps are infusable with a powersource to gain more power.
What we have now is the cultural + last blood is superior (ac/hp-wise) to TSS raid bp and close to solteris.
Droppable cultural (armor + symbol) is far superior to droppable group armor, and is equivalent to tier 2 group armor that requires a tough named drop from a tier 3 named mob. But that's the end of it for groupers, you can add a DoN or Omens aug for minimal added stats, but otherwise the tier 3 is superior to the cultural for groupers.
If the changes I suggested went in, it would be:
elegant bp + exalted symbol = 115 ac 275 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbol = 115 ac 310 hp
elegant bp + exalted symbol + level 75 group seal = 130 ac 395 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbole + level 75 group seal = 130 ac 430 hp
Note that if the stones for the level 75 group seals came from the same mobs as steam cores (perhaps drop off all of them at 50% the rate of steam cores since they can be used by any class) as an "extra loot" like the way last bloods are for raid mobs, you'd kill the same named mobs for about the same reward, cultural and the tier 2 stuff would be very very close.
So you have both only needing one drop from a named mob that you have to kill yourself, the rest is buyable.
elegant bp + exalted symbol + level 80 group seal = 140 ac 450 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbol + level 80 group seal = 140 ac 485 hp
Unless you get a raid level seal, these are better than what is currently available through cultural for groupers with the current stats. Plus, you get to choose foci which is a big help.
For the whole last blood thing, you see:
elegant + exalted + last blood = 160 ac 485 hp
elegant + sublime + last blood + 160 ac 530 hp
Which is way better than it should have been, but probably no worse than what the devs currently have in mind, and it avoids the problems with regard to balancing discordant/bazu seals.
elegant + sublime + serpent's = 160 ac 600 hp
elegant + sublime + sunshard = 165 ac 680 hp
elegant + sublime + faycite = 170 ac 770 hp
Basically, faycite ends up close to the same (bp is a tad less ac, but you'd need to pull different amounts of ac from the armor pieces to maintain reasonable ac balance for groupers, like, not take much from the wrists at all for example, and then spread the total ac out to 8 seal slots relative to which level).
This is a rough description, might be good to add a bit more to the theoretical group seals, but it was just an outline to give an idea.
Armor:
Simple: req 15 rec 20
Ornate: req 35 rec 40
Intricate: req 55 rec 60
Elaborate: req 65 rec 70
LEVEL 75 ARMOR: req 70? rec 74?
Elegant: req 75 rec 79
Symbols:
Blessed: req 15 rec 20
Revered: req 35 rec 40
Sacred: req 55 rec 60
Eminent: req 65 rec 69
Exalted: req 70 rec 74
Sublime: req 75 req 79
Looks alright so far? After all, these all came out in the same tiers with the same expansions (DoN and SoF).
But look at the seals:
Chronal seal: req 65
Discordant seal: req 65
Bazu seal: req 70
Last Blood seal: req 70
Serpent's seal: req 75
Sunshard seal: req 75
Faycite seal: req 80
Anyone else see a problem with this?
If last blood goes with the "70 set" then what about bazu/discordant/chronal? Level 70 required item with the level 60 "set"? Level 65 required items with the level 40 and 20 "sets"?
Sunshard ore makes level 60 recommended level 55 required armor. They have foci that max at level 65. You can make a 55 ac 80 hp breastplate out of it.
Intricate BPs + sacred chest symbol are also level 60 recommended and level 55 required armor. It makes 51 ac 95 hp armor with room for a type 12.
If Bazu stone is part of this "set", it not only has level 65 required on it, with level 70 raid foci on it (many of them anguish level), but 30 ac and 180 hp.
Obviously, they aren't a set. The gear is not comparable. Why? Because they aren't a set and these "sets" are a new construction with no basis in the itemization history.
If last blood seals are reduced in stats, and the stats moved to elaborate, you either have to nerf the bazu seals enough to make them sure you don't end up making elaborate + eminent + bazu better than it was in the first place (which was **** close to last blood already).
Let's say 10 ac and 100 hp is taken from last blood and moved to the armor. You would have to reduce bazu by the same amount to keep the balance with last blood. But are you going to be willing to move those stats to the intricate/sacred such that the level 60 recommended bp + symbol only goes up to 195 hp? That's pushing plane of time hp.
What about discordant then? Its 120 hp. Even if you let it get 20 hp close to bazu, you're still talking about putting 80 more hp on level 40 armor to and symbol to compensate.
Because all these symbols were really level 70 gear in the first place, it is not simply a matter of nerfing last bloods. You cannot just move the stats to the armor without imbalancing that stuff worse than this stuff currently is imbalanced.
This is one of the reasons (along with common sense) that you should take 100 hp off the sublime symbols and 70 hp off the exalted, and 7-15 ac (depending on slot) from the elegant armor, and THEN create groupable symbols that are created the exact same way as the raid seals are, but using the cheap container that you use for chronal and discordant.
Leave last blood, bazu, discordant, and chronal as is.
Add 30 hp to serpent's seal.
Add 5 ac and 60 hp to sunshard seal.
Add 10 ac and 100 hp to faycite seal.
Create 2 levels of group stones that use the cheap aaaa container in order to create:
15 ac 120 hp seals with level 75 req level and level 75 spell foci capped at the 30% level
25 ac 175 hp seals with lvel 80 req level and level 80 spell foci capped at the 40% level
Those percentages are based on damage foci, mix and match as needed obviously, it was an example.
Right now:
elegant bp + exalted symbol = 130 ac 345 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbol = 130 ac 410 hp
elegant bp + exalted symbol + last blood = 175 ac 555 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbol + last blood = 175 ac 620 hp
For reference:
droppable plate tier 1 bp: 115 ac 330 hp
tier 2 bp = tier 1 bp + steam core from tier 3 named = 135 ac 440 hp
tier 3 bp = tier 2 bp + named crystalos drop = 159 ac 550 hp
Demiplane BP = 143 ac 375 hp
Paladin TSS raid bp = 156 ac 480 hp
Solteris paladin bp = 172 ac 575 hp
All of the non-cultural except demi and tss bps are infusable with a powersource to gain more power.
What we have now is the cultural + last blood is superior (ac/hp-wise) to TSS raid bp and close to solteris.
Droppable cultural (armor + symbol) is far superior to droppable group armor, and is equivalent to tier 2 group armor that requires a tough named drop from a tier 3 named mob. But that's the end of it for groupers, you can add a DoN or Omens aug for minimal added stats, but otherwise the tier 3 is superior to the cultural for groupers.
If the changes I suggested went in, it would be:
elegant bp + exalted symbol = 115 ac 275 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbol = 115 ac 310 hp
elegant bp + exalted symbol + level 75 group seal = 130 ac 395 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbole + level 75 group seal = 130 ac 430 hp
Note that if the stones for the level 75 group seals came from the same mobs as steam cores (perhaps drop off all of them at 50% the rate of steam cores since they can be used by any class) as an "extra loot" like the way last bloods are for raid mobs, you'd kill the same named mobs for about the same reward, cultural and the tier 2 stuff would be very very close.
So you have both only needing one drop from a named mob that you have to kill yourself, the rest is buyable.
elegant bp + exalted symbol + level 80 group seal = 140 ac 450 hp
elegant bp + sublime symbol + level 80 group seal = 140 ac 485 hp
Unless you get a raid level seal, these are better than what is currently available through cultural for groupers with the current stats. Plus, you get to choose foci which is a big help.
For the whole last blood thing, you see:
elegant + exalted + last blood = 160 ac 485 hp
elegant + sublime + last blood + 160 ac 530 hp
Which is way better than it should have been, but probably no worse than what the devs currently have in mind, and it avoids the problems with regard to balancing discordant/bazu seals.
elegant + sublime + serpent's = 160 ac 600 hp
elegant + sublime + sunshard = 165 ac 680 hp
elegant + sublime + faycite = 170 ac 770 hp
Basically, faycite ends up close to the same (bp is a tad less ac, but you'd need to pull different amounts of ac from the armor pieces to maintain reasonable ac balance for groupers, like, not take much from the wrists at all for example, and then spread the total ac out to 8 seal slots relative to which level).
This is a rough description, might be good to add a bit more to the theoretical group seals, but it was just an outline to give an idea.