programmers who never find time to finsih a Job.

[saum]

:evil:
Got my 8th shawl tongiht :P
problm was when we finished the final encounter of course the general bugged out on the way to the gnomes. He actually warped all the way back to his beginning point. I had to go all the way back to the beginning of the war and manually agro the general and pull him to the gnomes because he was bugged. then had to repeatedly get him unstuck from the under the ice. fights took bout 30 mins i guess. getting him to the final turn in took forever. shouldnt this have been fixed an eon ago?
worse part was when i get multiple tells from peep who came saying "yea that happened to me as well"

[Cigarskunk]

shouldnt this have been fixed an eon ago?

They were going to, but you've got to understand that they were hard at work on SoL at the time - and as soon as they finished SoL they were going to fix it...

***BUT***

You've got to understand that they were hard at work on the big tradeskill patch at the time - and as soon as they finished the tradeskill patch they were going to fix it...

***BUT***

You've got to understand that they were hard at work on PoP at the time - and as soon as they finished PoP they were going to fix it...

***BUT***

You've got to understand that they were hard at work on LoY at the time - and as soon as they finished LoY they were going to fix it...

***BUT***

You've got to understand that they were hard at work on SWG at the time - and as soon as they finished SWG they were going to fix it...

***BUT***

You've got to understand that they were hard at work on EQ2 at the time - and as soon as they finished EQ2 they were going to fix it...

So as you can see, they are working on fixing it and based off of thier record of fixing broken quests which don't make life easier for players, I'd be willing to bet that it should be fixed no later than the release date of the third expansion for SWG.

[Zacatac]

I honestly think if they would just change his pathing after the TOFS battle so he SWIMS across the water to the next island, things would be fine. But no, lets have him path across the iceflows where he gets stuck constantly and warps back to spawn point. . .

We had to go back to his spawn point and get him twice on my trip there. And aggro him a couple times to get him unstuck. The monk, Enc, and bard in my group were basically in charge of babysitting the general. And I don't think I could have done it without them.
:\

[Balthozzar]

Old content

This is exactly the sort of thing that may cause my current break from EQ to become permanent. I've enjoyed the game in spite of the many small frustrations, but since i'm being forced to take some time off, I may just decide not to return. The energy they devote to fixing existing content vs. what they devote to producing new content is just infinitesimal. Reason: new content = money. It's that simple. How many programmer's and devs get paid from our 13 bucks a month (which also has to pay for all the network hardware, software, bandwidth, and personnel to oversee that) vs. how many get paid from the purchase price of an expansion? The real money is in cranking out new content, not fixing things that should have been tested better in the first place. Why do you think bank space is part of Ykesha instead of a free improvement like it should have been? The producers decided that they could better afford the time of the programmers to add such a feature if it was tied to an expansion rather than as normal operating cost.

Verant's EQ machine rolls downhill under the weight of expansions. They'll never cut into their bottom line enough to see that the hundreds of problems like this get fixed. Why are the epic quests still horribly unbalanced in difficulty and rarity from one class to the next? (i'm talking quests here, not the epic items themselves) It's Old Content. Why didn't plugging the deity gaps in Cultural armor make it into the latest Dev statement about what they are working on for tradeskills? It's Old Content. Why did Essense of Sunlight drops never increase (as they had said all temper component drops would be looked at) and Chromas made even MORE undesirable to hunt, either on purpose to nerf groups decimating the zone to get their clerics their shards, or by an accident that they won't fix? Old Content.

Anything more than one expansion old doesn't give them the kind of revenue for them to bother with fixing it. This is why the current poll on AllaKhazzam's shows that 50% of current EQ players have no plans to buy SWG. Ask the same question about EQ2, I'd bet on similar numbers. I know that the main reasons i've continued to play this game for this long because of friendships I'd built up and investment in my current characters. The Fun v. Frustration ration is still > 1 in regards to the game itself, but it's gotten much smaller the last year or more, as I've come to realise that whatever changes are made in the dev teams, the philosophy is the same. Creating NEW content >> Fixing Old content.

[Quesci]

Re: Old content

Why do you think bank space is part of Ykesha instead of a free improvement like it should have been?

I am mostly with you on this rant. I do have a small issue with the above statement. Why should increased bank space be free? I don't understand your reasoning. If anything, I would have expected them to charge more for extra bank space, either by offering it to Legends subscribers or as a one time fee (which I guess you could think of LoY as). What would make you say that increased bank space "should have been" a free improvement?

And look at this recent patch. They have gone back and fixed LOTS of Old Content bugs. Moorgard even mentioned it in Mobhunter's latest article: "My only qualm is that some of these things should have been handled years ago. I mean, doors in Freeport?"

I agree with your point, that adding new content generates money and fixing old content doesn't. The problem that I see is with the issues you point out (epic quest balance, temper drops, cultural discrepancies) is that they aren't exactly bugs. We have no idea why they are like that, but until the Dev Team changes things, we have to assume that they want the Mage epic to be just that hard, they don't want all races to have cultural options, and that temper drops are where they want them.

A quick glance at the bugs fixed in this patch as listed in the patch message shows

* Old World: 7
* Kunark: 4
* Velious: 5
* Luclin: 17
* PoP: 8
* Global or undetermined: 11 (things I couldn't classify or overall game play issues).

{Note: this is a rough, back-of-the-envelope count. I may have some of the NPCs in the wrong expansion and some of my counts are judgement calls as to where to place the bug, but the point is that they gave as much or more attention to old bugs as new ones in this patch}.

Honestly, I would pay $18.00 for the new bank space, LFG tool, guild tools, cartography tools. Leave the new race, new zones, and new spells, and spend the extra money on fixing more bugs.

That's my opinion.

[Lilosh]

Someone pointed out over on the boards on everquest.com...


There was a poll a while back, where the Devs/Marketing types/Verant/Soe asked

Would you rather see New Content, or a fixing/redoing of old content.


And from the information I saw, the votes were overwhelmingly choosing the first option.

(Standard I dont have the exact item in front of me, my two cents, YMMV, and all that jazz to cover myself)

-Lilosh

[Balthozzar]

With regards to bank space, it should have been obvious to any player or dev that 4, and soon to be 5, expansions and the increase in items that comes with each one, that the original 8 slots would be inadequate. Hundreds of new quests to save items for, thousands of trade skill recipes to save items for, new drop or quested spells to put in your bank until you level, new misc items to try and sell . . . How many people aren't using at least one of their 8 character slots ONLY as a mule character to take the overflow? The limits on our bank space is a foreseeable consequence of the growth of the game. To be honest, I expect this sort of improvement to be part of the $13 bucks a month we pay. Others are free to disagree, I see that point of view also.

As for fixing Old Content in general, I expect that to have a higher priority than it does whether we're talking 'bug' or 'imbalance'. Also, how many things with Old Content do they fix that really shouldn't have been problems in the first place? Just taking a quick look at Nightmare plate in comparison to BD cultural, why would anyone have thought a recommended lvl of 61 was appropriate for armor that isn't really even quite as good as the cultural with a recommended lvl of 45? That shows that whoever designed those items didn't spend the time or thought to really balance risk vs. reward right then, which creates the need to go back and fix it now. (Hence the statement in the current dev letter regarding tradeskills). For the epics, they've said many times in the past how they felt that some epics turned out to be more powerful than they anticipated, and I also find it very hard to believe that they intended for some of the quests to be much more difficult and time consuming than others. Again, lacking the foresight and testing to be sure that these sorts of things are appropriately balanced in the first place is why there are more problems with Old Content than they will ever get to fix at the rate they are going. Sure, they do get around to fixing some of the really old problems eventually, but part of their philosophy of cranking out New Content fast is hurting their ability to test this stuff right from the get-go. Trade skills are especially hard to test on the test server because of the smaller server population, and in beta testing expansions, players want to see the new mobs and the new zones, not slave away at the forge for hours trying to decipher new recipes.

The current game is huge. I've been playing for over 3 years now and there's still a lot I haven't had the chance to experience. It really is at the point where they'd be better served revamping Old Content than making new zones. Why? Because every expansion has upped power, and now with PoP, they've made everything else sub-standard exp for lvl 55+. Some great dungeons like Chardok are Howling Stones are deserted because you can hunt in outdoor zones with much less risk and free and easy CR for better exp. The few people in some old world dungeons like Sol A and B, Lguk, etc, are usualy twinks either soloing or killing what used to be 2 or 3 entire camps with less than a full group. I don't recall seeing the results of that poll you mentioned, but I know that I voted for fixing and revamping Old Content.

[Stokvorn Warwalker]

Soap box time
/em climb’s on soap box

I like to see new content as it is a challenge to me to see what there is to see and do. I
would however
1st: Like to see them fix the old content
2nd: Like to see them test the new content before release to find the things that are
bugged/broken
3rd: Make things that had been broken/bugged known as such so people will maybe try to
do them after the fix.
4th: Spend the time to stop and think about what the new content will do to the old
content.
5th: Make it worth the time to play on the test server to those who would really do the
different test’s to see what is bugged/broken. with monthly discount or some such thing.

/em climbs off soap box
/em scratch’s head “what is soap”
/em Thinks “new dwarf iron cake to go with iron rations”

[ArrakeenNaedShoj]

(Forewarning, please consider all statements made in this post opinion, any "facts" mentioned are from memory. I have been wrong before)

I am mostly with you on this rant. I do have a small issue with the above statement. Why should increased bank space be free? I don't understand your reasoning. If anything, I would have expected them to charge more for extra bank space, either by offering it to Legends subscribers or as a one time fee (which I guess you could think of LoY as). What would make you say that increased bank space "should have been" a free improvement?

Well, Before SoL was released, one of the questions asked in the Developers forum of the (I believe) Boston fanfaire was, "Are we going to get more bank space with this expansion?" The response was(and I understand it was a different Dev team at the time) that with the way the game was coded it would be nearly impossible for them to change, as it would require the entire player database to be re-written.

To me, this portrays the bank space issue as a bug, and personally I don't think it's 'right' to charge people money for a bug fix. Especially when those people already payed, $39.95 for the game, 19.95 for 4 different expansions, 9.95 a month for 2 years, and 12.95 a month for the last year.

That's my opinion. I simply don't find it customer friendly. It's obviously good business, but that doesn't make it 'good' business.

There was a poll a while back, where the Devs/Marketing types/Verant/Soe asked

Would you rather see New Content, or a fixing/redoing of old content.

The results I remember seeing were the opposite. Every time I saw reposts of the poll on the Dev forum and other forums the overwhelming majority wanted bug-fixes and re-tooling of old content. Something like 89% wanted that over a new, buggy, broken expansion.

[Serenya]

(Forewarning, please consider all statements made in this post opinion, any "facts" mentioned are from memory. I have been wrong before)

Well, Before SoL was released, one of the questions asked in the Developers forum of the (I believe) Boston fanfaire was, "Are we going to get more bank space with this expansion?" The response was(and I understand it was a different Dev team at the time) that with the way the game was coded it would be nearly impossible for them to change, as it would require the entire player database to be re-written.

To me, this portrays the bank space issue as a bug, and personally I don't think it's 'right' to charge people money for a bug fix. Especially when those people already payed, $39.95 for the game, 19.95 for 4 different expansions, 9.95 a month for 2 years, and 12.95 a month for the last year.

That's my opinion. I simply don't find it customer friendly. It's obviously good business, but that doesn't make it 'good' business.

Eep. As a programmer and DBA, I assure you that that is NOT a bug. It's a fundamental part of how the database is designed; you could argue that it was a flawed design, but that is not the same as a bug in the code. (And really, it isn't a flaw in the design either, so much as a failure to anticipate future needs, and unsurprising giving that the DB was designed more then five years ago). Redesigning the database is a significant change, taking a substantial number of man-hours, and worth paying more for if done correctly.

[ArrakeenNaedShoj]

Eep. As a programmer and DBA, I assure you that that is NOT a bug. It's a fundamental part of how the database is designed; you could argue that it was a flawed design, but that is not the same as a bug in the code. (And really, it isn't a flaw in the design either, so much as a failure to anticipate future needs, and unsurprising giving that the DB was designed more then five years ago). Redesigning the database is a significant change, taking a substantial number of man-hours, and worth paying more for if done correctly.

You are correct. Bug wasn't really the right term, sorry. Design flaw is more correct. In that they didn't design the database to expand to possible future needs.

But they're attitude at the time was more of a "we intended to make this better originally but lacked the skills" than a "we designed it this way on purpose."

I didn't mean to suggest that there wouldn't be a capital requirement to resolve the problem. Just that if they wanted expandibility in the database back when the game was made, but couldn't do it at the time, and now they can, it isn't exactly 'right' to charge an extra 20 bucks for the service. Especially when you consider that all players use the same database anyway, they are fixing it for those of us who aren't buying the expansion whether they want to or not, they are just preventing us from utilizing the change until we pay our $20.

Like I said, it's good business. And they are out to make a profit like every other business. I just hate how all businesses have drifted from the "We want to provide service X while making a profit." to "We want to do as little as we can to make as much as we can."

[Serenya]

You are correct, any redesign of a core portion of their DB, as character storage is, would have to be implemented across the board. Furthermore, I recall Sony pushing just that to the test servers a couple months back. My personal suspicion is that they rewrote the database dealing with character storage both to take advantage of additional resources and to accommodate future needs. Having done so, some programmer said 'hey, now that we've changed the way characters own items we could increase bank storage really easily!' And some DBA pointed out that that would potentially increase storage needs per character by one half, and how do you cost justify that? At which point they got the bright idea of adding it as a feature to the expansion being worked on in the back room…..

Serenya

[Glatius2]

I don't know, I guess I look at things a little differently. Within reason I have no problem with paying for an expansion that includes things such as additional bank space in addition other things like new races or new zones. I consider these one time only expenses which allow me more convenience and enjoyment.

I object more to expansions such as PoP where the majority of the zones are closed to me and are likely to stay closed to me for the forseeable future. If you're charging person X and person Y the same one time fee they should get similar value for that price. Locking me out of, not just a few zones, but by far the majority of zones, and still charging me the same price someone who gets to experience everything they paid for, is much more objectionable to me.

I don't mind paying for additional bank space. I would object to paying for additional bank space if I had to join an uber guild and kill 5 uber boss mobs to get rare or very limited drop in order to complete a quest that would allow me to use that additional bank space.

I see PoP zones for the most part as being similar to bank space. Everyone who bought the expansion paid for it, only a small portion of the player base are actually being allowed to use it. I think a refund is in order, because I'm not even getting the majority (because I won't argue that every zone should be open, but certainly it makes no sense that the majority are restricted) of the value out of it I paid for.

[Kheera]

Hm. From someone who knows enough about programming to be dangerous:

If a programmer has to anticipate every need for software that might be necessary four years later, and make the coding as flexible and upgradeable as possible.... the project comes in a year late and at twice the budget, and they likely didn't implement capability for something that suddenly becomes an issue two years later anyway (because of some new development they couldn't conceive of then). There are always compromises.

As a computer example: I know a wonderful business computer which was exactlywhat most everyone in the market said they wanted: the ultimate in PC expandability. It was designed to be fully modular, an amazing design, very expandable (though very proprietary because of the limitations of standardized computer designs)... and also cost nearly half again as much as a standard PC from the same company, due to the extra research, development, and specialized components. It did not sell because of the extra cost and died fast.

Or, from another angle, like saying that an Apple IIe is junk and Wozniak did a terrible job of design, because you can't add a CD-ROM to it. (Ok, a little longer time lapse involved, but you get the idea.)

Kheera

[Quesci]

I object more to expansions such as PoP where the majority of the zones are closed to me and are likely to stay closed to me for the forseeable future. If you're charging person X and person Y the same one time fee they should get similar value for that price.

Let me start by saying that I agree with you. I do want to throw out the argument that has been made by the uber players, and will be made again about LoY. Adding an expansion for the 1-60 crowd does nothing for them, because they won't go to those zones. Oh sure, maybe once to see them and maybe if they have to powerlevel some alt. But most of them will complain that they won't get any new content from the expansion because they only really care about raiding.

Even from my decidedly non-uber point of view... I have been to every non keyed zone in the game (and many of the keyed ones), but I really don't get much use out of Shadeweaver, Warrens, or Swamp of No Hope.

I don't mind paying for additional bank space. I would object to paying for additional bank space if I had to join an uber guild and kill 5 uber boss mobs to get rare or very limited drop in order to complete a quest that would allow me to use that additional bank space.

Great point. I do agree with you about keyed zones. It is extremely unfair that level 65 players with hundreds of AAs who happen to be in small guilds can't progress beyond the lower Tiers. Kunark, Velious, and Luclin all had keyed content, but none of it locked you out of FURTHER content. Every keyed zone in the game prior to PoP was a "dead end"

I see PoP zones for the most part as being similar to bank space. Everyone who bought the expansion paid for it, only a small portion of the player base are actually being allowed to use it. I think a refund is in order, because I'm not even getting the majority (because I won't argue that every zone should be open, but certainly it makes no sense that the majority are restricted) of the value out of it I paid for.

It sounds, from the latest Developer's Letter, that they are working on ways to allow more people to experience the Tier 3 and up planes. I agree that it is unfair to make you buy n expansion and then lock you out of the majority of the content (even if you did get the new spells, new AAs, new levels, and new transportation system).

Again, though, the ubers can argue that they are being... not so much "locked out" but left out of the new expansion, as there is nothing there for them except the bank space and new tools.