Which tradeskills have glass ceilings?

[Lilosh]

I recently did Fletching through 215, all store bought. Cost about 1kpp through 202, then about 14kpp more to reach 215. To reach 235, you lose about 73pp per success using store-bought cams (302pp per failure), or lose 21pp per success using tinkered cams. Assuming you take about 50 tries per skillup on average, that's 21pp x 20 x 50 = 21kpp. Hardly more money than exists in EQ! Admittedly, a pain, you need to obtain lots of unstackable cams from a tinker.

Cigarskunk's post made me double check your math.

Did you purposely calculate assuming 100% success from 200-250?

Your formula 21p * 20 * 50 = 21k , assumes that EVERY SINGLE COMBINE succeeds.


Every failure adds 281p, (by your math), to the already large 21k.
And there will be alot of failures.

-Lilosh

[tatanka7th]

Well, first you are correct, but I was just doing a quick, back of the envelope calculation, so I didn't take failure into account (although I only had 10 failures in over 500 attempts going from 202-215 with bows, so that is not as large of a factor as you may think. My 14kpp figure for that only had 2kpp in failures).

The other thing, the 21k figure is just for going from 215 to 235, not 200-250.

My only point in the original response was to counter the "more money than is available in EQ" comment about using bows to skill up fletching to 235. Even if you used the store bought cams, skilling up with arrows from 1-202, and then bows from 202-235, you couldn't possibly spend 100kpp, and it would take a few hours, sitting on your butt in front of one vendor. In the world of "glass ceilings" that we're discussing, that doesn't put fletching in the same county as tailoring or smithing, let alone the same zip code. Those guys talk about 100kpp as a mere fraction of what it takes to skill up.

Add to the fact that you can "specialize" in Fletching (ie. 201 skill) for less than 2kpp in 3 hours, sitting on said butt in front of said vendor =) The issues we're discussing here are only factors once you're into the 200+ range. Smithing and tailoring hit their "pain" threshholds earlier (188 and 158 respectively)

[Shaman Arriana]

Tinkering and Alchemy (and poisonmaking, you forgot that one) don't have glass ceilings, they have titanium reinforced concrete ceilings...if you aren't of the proper class/race to be able to attempt them.

[kiztent]

"shaman are actually preferable for PLing characters (because you skill up with shaman PLing)" vs. druids.

Um, OK, how is that different? All druid PLed chars have maxxed skills also.

I think you're getting confused with monk (almost kill and FD), or enchanter/cleric (have a 3rd char almost kill, and then mind wipe) PLing.

Tat

I'm not confused at all. Druid PLing involves damage shields. Given the speed at which mobs die, and not from your meleeing, if you've been druid PLed with a DS, you will not have time to max defense, offense and weapon skills before levelling. With Shaman PLing, you have to melee everything to death (and get meleed, unless the shaman slows, which is a bad idea) and will have maxed skills. My wife PLs alts with her druid (65) and I with my shaman (43), I know exactly what I'm talking about.

And if you give the enchanter some decent HP gear and a good weapon (and buff pet as well), they are very easy to PL to 25. Again, I speak from experience here. Of course, you will have to spend some time on skills, but hey, it's not perfect.

[Ngreth Thergn]

you will not have time to max defense, offense and weapon skills before levelling.

I have to disagree slightly (just slightly)

I PL'd a Paladin from 5 to 33 with a level 50 druid...
Her Defense skills were max... (Her offense was not, and only one weapon was near max) You Are being HIT constantly... so defense goes up nicely... but sicne sometimes you are fighting above your skill, your offense does not go up as nicely becasue of all the misses

[tatanka7th]

Well I will have to respectfully disagree.

As a druid who has PLed 2 toons to the 50s (a chanter and a monk), both had maxxed skills (offense, defense, weapons, etc) all the way up. I guess your experience was different, but from discussions on the Druid's Grove boards, your experience was the exception, not the rule.

And you misunderstood my comment on enchanters. I was referring to the >PLing< class, not the PLed class. I know chanters are easy to PL. I was referring those who use chanters as part of the PLing team (using mind wipe).

Addendum: OK, it depends how high you PL. On second thought, skills do lag behind through about level 20-22, since these levels absolutely fly. But by the time you hit the early 30's, they have all caught up. If you stop PLing in the 20s, then yes, you would be correct about druid PLing. But not if you continue into the 30s (definitely not by level 40).

Well, I think we're successfully derailing this thread, no? =)

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled thread!

Tat

[Cigarskunk]

Add to the fact that you can "specialize" in Fletching (ie. 201 skill) for less than 2kpp in 3 hours, sitting on said butt in front of said vendor =) The issues we're discussing here are only factors once you're into the 200+ range. Smithing and tailoring hit their "pain" threshholds earlier (188 and 158 respectively)

The point is that there IS a glass ceiling - it doesn't matter if the ceiling starts at 202 or if it starts at 21 - the purpose was to determine were these ceilings are.

Sadly, it would now seem to have degenerated into how thick said ceiling is for various races, the normal "my tradeskill is harder than yours," whether or not enchanted items can be store bought (they can't - drop it) and now, sigh, PLing techniques.

[tatanka7th]

well, to me, the "how thick is the glass ceiling" is a perfectly valid part of the discussion.

I mean, what exactly is implied by "glass ceiling"? We mean, it gets hard to progress the skill. Well, there are varying degrees of difficulty, with three main factors: Expense to make the skillup items, difficulty in gathering non-NPC-buyable items (include items made/modified by other PCs), and ability to recoup plat from the finished products that you skill up on.

All 3 factors are somewhat subjective, since they are not a constant for all players:

1 - NPC component expense: Of course, this is a constant for a given item, but a player's bankroll determines how "hard" this may make progressing in the skill.

2 - non-vendor-buyables: A players ability to hunt in the right areas, access to alts/friends with the right skills, or bankroll to just buy what's needed, this will vary greatly between players as to how "hard" it is to make progress.

3 - Ability to recoup plat from finished products: Somewhat dependant on server economies, and whether you can leave a bazaar mule on 24/7. But mostly dependent on how saturated a market is, or usefulness of an item.

Now if we can try to assign an average value for these 3 criteria, that would apply to "most" players, or maybe varying values, one for the casual player, one in a large guild, etc, then you can get an idea where the "ceilings" are and how "thick" they are. You might even be able to chart a tradeskill, and define several ceilings at various skill levels.

Here's an example for Jewelcraft:

1 - NPC component expense: Not too much of a factor until you start working on plat, and even then a minor factor if you enchant the metal.

2 - only factor here is ability to enchant the metal, and only really makes a difference with plat. So if you're not an enchanter or don't have access to one, then this can be an issue.

3 - Very small factor in JC, since non-enchanted sells back for 99% of cost, and enchanted for about 105%.

So JCs chart might look like this:

1-199 no glass ceiling, as bars are relatively cheap, successes are good if sticking to relatively close trivials, and buyback price is good to excellent, depending on metal enchantment.

200-250 difficulty raised somewhat, mainly due to factors 1 (price of components) and 2 (if you need someone else to enchant bars, or time factor if enchanting yourself, that is, if you care to enchant them at all). On a scale of 1-10, I'd probably rate these as a 3 and a 4 (neither is that big of a deal).

So one could say JC has no ceiling through 199, and rates maybe a 3 after that.

I'll leave it to others to try this with the other tradeskills.

Tat