Which tradeskills have glass ceilings?

[kiztent]

Since it's a level 29 spell - imbue star rose quartz - it's a bit of an annoyance to PL a cleric to 29... I'm not a druid, so the "ds shield and burn" method doesn't work for me.

shaman are actually preferable for PLing characters (because you skill up with shaman PLing).

Take noob, level to 6 in noob yard. Take noob to the Warrens, haste, HoS, pet up and follow (you pet up so if you get heal aggro when you overpull you can still watch the noob in peace). It should be trivial to get to 16 (tinkering level) in 5 hours, and I had a 40 shaman to do it with. As the warrens blues out, move to netherbian lair (16-19 should be ok to PL there). Once netherbian lair goes green (25), you have a few choices. MSeru or run steins. Planar steins are passable exp in the low 20s, just time consuming to run the traveller's manual.

Or you could make some DS potions in addition to the above and level faster.

Enchanter is now 14 levels from enchant adamantium.

/end derail

[Lilosh]

Enchanter is now 14 levels from enchant adamantium.

24 levels. Enchant XXX (For high level smithing) is level 49.


-Lilosh

[kiztent]

Actually, if you want a discussion of glass ceilings, you need to define it better.

Why, for example, is calling JC store bought to 250 different from calling fletching store bought to 235? What amount of plat makes skill points "too expensive".

How do you factor in the difficulty of getting things imbued or enchanted (a high elf cleric is going to have a much easier path to BD cultural than any other race/class combination in the game (of course morning dew makes their Bd cultural much more annoying - unless you can have a human tunare cleric or druid).

I think lowering the difficulty of smithing to that of tailoring and giving some variety to pottery post 200 would pretty much 'balance' things out.

[Wyrdlan]

I gotta admit, not to start a flame war, but I'm not overly impressed with the difficulty of smithing over tailoring.

Shadowscream may be worthless, even with no rent components, but I'm seriously thinking of using it to make a fortune in the bazaar. Farming components that are no rent but tradeable in the age of the AFK bazaar trader is just not that bad unless the server crashes.

I honestly don't know how bad the wailing is, but the swirling mist is easy to get lots of. I'm considering just periodically checking the war in HS and making tons of orbs to sell on my vender to pay for tailoring.

[Lilosh]

I honestly don't know how bad the wailing is, but the swirling mist is easy to get lots of. I'm considering just periodically checking the war in HS and making tons of orbs to sell on my vender to pay for tailoring.

I must agree. When I read that the thing you combine Wailing and Shrieking substances into, I wondered why nobody has though to make and market these. Buy from me, go farm some swirling shadows, and you are good to go.


The problem is , people would to charge quite a bit, and it would cease to be the poor man's alternative skillup pattern.

-Lilosh

[Wyrdlan]

Well yeah, but if you don't feel like buying just do it yourself.


It's no different than the 3 step guide to getting your tailoring to 250*, it's just that smiths are now finding out about it.


I understand it sucks. I really do. What I also understand is that you smiths estimate you get a 1 in 5 return on farming level 15 to 20 mobs to get smithing to 250. Shades get up to level 30 or so.

The closest thing in the tailoring world is POTC Robes which also take 250 JC, imbued gems, and pottery skill to make.

* Step 1: Powerlevel a necro to 65....

[kiztent]

I gotta admit, not to start a flame war, but I'm not overly impressed with the difficulty of smithing over tailoring.

I'm making a killing selling velium to tailors. That doesn't mean I'm going to denigrate the difficulty of tailoring.

Shadowscream may be worthless, even with no rent components, but I'm seriously thinking of using it to make a fortune in the bazaar. Farming components that are no rent but tradeable in the age of the AFK bazaar trader is just not that bad unless the server crashes.

I honestly don't know how bad the wailing is, but the swirling mist is easy to get lots of. I'm considering just periodically checking the war in HS and making tons of orbs to sell on my vender to pay for tailoring.

You spend up 5 hours getting a zone set up to farm and tell me about the difficulty. And since the orbs don't stack, it will probably be more profitable in terms of plat/slot to sell other things.

I've farmed the wailing and shrieking substances as well as swirling shadows, windstones and essences of wind, essence of shadow and elf blood. I've also farmed velium, acrylia and hopper hides. I haven't farmed drake, wyvern and othmir because I can't compete with the packs of quadding druids and wizards when I do visit cobalt scar (plus the othmir are too cute to kill).

I vendor mine extensively and have a list of tradeskill items that I will always buy if I see them that includes every tradeskill (I'm still a bit weak on pop drops though, as the denizens of serverwide know - 'uh, is this razorfiend talon worth anything?').

In short, I've farmed zones and merchants for tailoring and smithing (and baking and brewing and pottery), and I say smithing is ridiculously harder - the fact that the smithing drops are not in common experience zones makes a HUGE difference in terms of trader/merchant availability (velium from vhelk's versus windstones from tenebrous mountains or twilight sea (tell me, is there a zone that's more laggy than twilight?) - tell me about the relative zone populations if you will - care to guess how that effects component availability).

You farm for both and I'll listen to what you have to say.

Imagine the howls of protest from tailors if a bottleneck component for their trade dropped in only one zone with a bugged war that made it unlikely that the mobs would even be UP at a given time (not that you'd have to imagine too hard. Hint: Dawnshroud peaks, hint 2: scarlet rockhoppers had drop tables changed).

/begin hazy dream sequence
Now imagine if the war in dawnshroud was broken and didn't work as advertised, and tailors had to manipulate the war to gather all the components they needed because 2 different sides in the war dropped essential components. Now imagine that acrylia ore is no rent. And hopper hides are no drop.
/end hazy dream sequence

If you can manage this, you might begin to understand the difficulty of smithing now.

[ArrakeenNaedShoj]

How do you factor in the difficulty of getting things imbued or enchanted (a high elf cleric is going to have a much easier path to BD cultural than any other race/class combination in the game (of course morning dew makes their Bd cultural much more annoying - unless you can have a human tunare cleric or druid).

Pardon the de-rail, but speaking as a 54 High Elf Cleric, what are you smoking and where can I get some? If you are suggesting that I can just skillup myself on my cultural you are sorely mistaken. Every non-trivial ATTEMPT above 188 REQUIRES a level 49 Enchanter to blow an entire bar of mana, AND days foraging with an alt(or appearently hoping the brownies aren't camped and the @#$% undead unicorn isn't up).

I won't speak for other Races smithing difficulties(I haven't tried it as another race and it would therefore be unfair, though I do believe some have it easier), but at the VERY LEAST a High Elf Enchanter would have it easier, since they would only have to PL an alt to 29 to be able to do everything themselves(heck if they did a woodelf druid it would kill both their foraging needs and their imbue needs). Where as If I want to do everything myself with just my main and my alts I have to have two alts, one forager in the 20s AND an enchanter above 49.

In short It is much easier for a highelf to find Imbued Gems, than it is for him to find Enchanted ore.

[kiztent]

Pardon the de-rail, but speaking as a 54 High Elf Cleric, what are you smoking and where can I get some? If you are suggesting that I can just skillup myself on my cultural you are sorely mistaken.

Mistletoe cutting sickles. Since all high elves worship tunare (right?) you have an easier source of imbued emeralds than any other BD cultural smith. Ok, saying "much" may have been a bit strong, since sickles aren't cheap, but I'd take it over the alternatives that I have - which are also available to you.

Yes, I know about enchanters, and yes I know about morning dew too. They need to fix both.

[kiztent]

Enchanter is now 14 levels from enchant adamantium.

24 levels. Enchant XXX (For high level smithing) is level 49.


-Lilosh

And my enchanter is level 35 (honest, check the magelo). 49-35=14.

We discussing getting to 29. I've progressed beyond 29, but the path I outlined is the path I took to get a tinker to 16 and the enchanter to 25. Maybe the proximity was confusing, but I used paragraphs for a reason.

[Lilosh]

And my enchanter is level 35 (honest, check the magelo). 49-35=14.

We discussing getting to 29. I've progressed beyond 29, but the path I outlined is the path I took to get a tinker to 16 and the enchanter to 25. Maybe the proximity was confusing, but I used paragraphs for a reason.

Sorry, I was mistaken.

I thought you were saying "Here is a way to 25. Now just 14 more for Enchanting."

My apologies.


-Lilosh

[Ozmandias]

ooh ooh

Using your definition, Smithing would be the hardest. Probably something like this, using a farm vs vendor (items are purchasable completely) scale:

Smithing
X
Tailoring
X
X
X
Pottery
X
X
Baking
X
Fletching
JC
Brewing

As a side note to the "mine sucks more than you!" thread...try Iksar Smithing. The ultimate in suck.

#1 Scale temper. All the bloods are uncommon to rare with Iksar Blood being such an insanely drop that even thinking about skilling on the higher level stuff is a thought to make you wince and take up something easier like Alligator Wrestling.

#2 Imbued amber. Perhaps your servers are unlike mine, but Iksar shamen are few and far between on Test. I had originally thought there were only 3, but turns out there might be as many as 6 total, although perhaps only half actually play. And imbuing 1 stack takes 1.5 to 2 bars of mana.

#3 Scales do not stack. Oh this drives me nuts. You need 1-3 scales per piece and they don't stack. None of the scales do, not even the lower level ones. You have no choice but to only make enough for 3 or so attempts as you will fill up all your space.

#4 Iksar smithing uses Blocks of Velium. This makes zero sense. To smith armor for people in a cave at the edge of a wild continent you have to travel to the farthest frozen north for metal? Then feel free to add in the rarity of this stuff...

#5 Stats stink therefore no market. Well, if you're a shammie, it's actually not bad, but again few ikky shammies around. As a tank, the leggings are the only worthwhile piece and actually has more STR and AC than the BP. Otherwise, people won't be queuing up to but that AC 12 +5 DEX belt. It's pretty good shammie armor, with HP and Mana on every piece, and a decent amount of WIS over all, but you're going to be selling to the smallest demographic ever.

#6 Quest text never finished. Remember when DE's got those smithed robes? Forgetting the odd concept of smithed robes altogether, the text on the iksar smith was never finished. In fact, unless you knew from here or spoilers how to make Celestial Essence, you'd never know from our smith. He gets cut off right before it. Who knows, he might have a snazzy smithed Iksar robe too. He does talk about making scales light...very similar to the DE text.

Weee, I win! =)

[kiztent]

Re: ooh ooh

Using your definition, Smithing would be the hardest. Probably something like this, using a farm vs vendor (items are purchasable completely) scale:

--snip--

As a side note to the "mine sucks more than you!" thread...try Iksar Smithing. The ultimate in suck.

All that and you get an exp penalty!

I liked the diagram, fits my view of the relative suck.

[Wyrdlan]

velium from vhelk's versus windstones from tenebrous mountains or twilight sea

I guess it's just a matter of what you have to work with.

I spent two hours in twilight sea, didn't notice any lag problem, and found lots of essence of wind and three windstones.... with a 29 SK.


Maybe I should do an experiment and take the level 50ish GROUP I'd need to farm Velks (less people for each level higher you get, but I've only got 50s to work with) to twilight sea and introduce the elementals to my Windblade and see what I can farm. Then we'll go to Tenebrous and drop in on all the Grol Baku and Grimlings.

Then I'll take that same group to Velks and get some velium. Then I'll take them to Wakeninglands, show them what a Yew Leaf looks like, and tell them to watch out for giants, dragons, corrupted nymphs/panthers/unicorns, mercs, and everything else if they are evils. I'll be sure to tell them to kill the panthers they see.

We'll see who takes longer to come up with 20 combines. It'd say it'd be a close match. Danger level for farming is much higher with tailoring in that instance though.

Or we could go pure cash route:
POTC Sickle:
Requires: Emerald (2), Ruby, Sapphire + Merchant Stuff
Cost: 30pp + 130pp + 105pp + 30pp? = 295pp
Subcombine fail rate: Normal
Adjusted cost (with fail rate): 33pp + 136pp + 110pp + 33pp? = 312pp
Other skills needed: Brewing 136, Pottery 103

POTC Robe:
Requires: Emerald (4), Ruby, Sapphire, Spider Silk (6)
Cost: 60pp + 130pp + 105pp + (We'll be nice and say farmed) = 295pp
Subcombine fail rate: Very high (1/3 on necklace)
Adjusted cost (with fails) : 63pp + 169pp + 136pp = 368pp (And you are farming your own silks)
Other skills needed: Brewing 136, Pottery 103, Jewelcraft 250



At some point, I suppose, I'm going to have to put my time where my mouth is and see about getting smithing up. For now though, I have to say it just seems so painful for smiths because it used to be a cash + padding skill. It's painful because it changed and newer smiths got screwed. I'll even acknowledge if you have high enough characters to farm for you, tailoring can be farmed similiarly to smithing. I'll say they may be on the same level now. I still just don't buy that it's noticably harder than tailoring.

How about we say they are DIFFERENTLY a pain in the butt, but EQUIVALENTLY a pain?

Maybe it's my experiences with the hopper cave in DSP that has made my heart cold to your please about the war in Hollowshade. The war needs to be fixed though, there is some nice stuff that should be dropping!

[kiztent]

Maybe I should do an experiment and take the level 50ish GROUP I'd need to farm Velks (less people for each level higher you get, but I've only got 50s to work with) to twilight sea and introduce the elementals to my Windblade and see what I can farm. Then we'll go to Tenebrous and drop in on all the Grol Baku and Grimlings.

Then I'll take that same group to Velks and get some velium. Then I'll take them to Wakeninglands, show them what a Yew Leaf looks like, and tell them to watch out for giants, dragons, corrupted nymphs/panthers/unicorns, mercs, and everything else if they are evils. I'll be sure to tell them to kill the panthers they see.

We'll see who takes longer to come up with 20 combines. It'd say it'd be a close match. Danger level for farming is much higher with tailoring in that instance though.

Shrug. Velk's is an exp zone, getting velium is a bonus. If you want to farm velium for speed, take a group of mid 30s to CC and slaughter the orcs. Or take a single mid 50 necro (you do have a necro to farm right?).

If you want to tailor for speed, take your 51 druid and quad wyverns, then go empty CC (or take your 50 necro, whatever). I've heard of people needing longer than it would take to get enough supplies for 20 tailoring combines by this method trying to get the HSM war to work for ONE of the TWO components they need.

Or we could go pure cash route:
POTC Sickle:
Requires: Emerald (2), Ruby, Sapphire + Merchant Stuff
Cost: 30pp + 130pp + 105pp + 30pp? = 295pp
Subcombine fail rate: Normal
Adjusted cost (with fail rate): 33pp + 136pp + 110pp + 33pp? = 312pp
Other skills needed: Brewing 136, Pottery 103

POTC Robe:
Requires: Emerald (4), Ruby, Sapphire, Spider Silk (6)
Cost: 60pp + 130pp + 105pp + (We'll be nice and say farmed) = 295pp
Subcombine fail rate: Very high (1/3 on necklace)
Adjusted cost (with fails) : 63pp + 169pp + 136pp = 368pp (And you are farming your own silks)
Other skills needed: Brewing 136, Pottery 103, Jewelcraft 250

It's not a pure cash route and you know it's not. It requires imbued emeralds ****** (both of them actually). You also conveniently forget to mention that the hardest part of the combine for the tailoring path to obtain (chain) is RETURNED on a failure. Sure it's weird that tailors pray for failures, but not the strangest thing I know of.

You also completely missed the smithing recipie. Let's try from the source (http://www.eqtraders.com/quests/potc_first.htm):

Blessed Sickle Blade:
Sheet Metal
Smithy Hammer
Emerald
Curved Blade Mold
Celestial Essence
Blessed Dust of Tunare
Mistletoe Temper

Blessed Hilt:
Sheet Metal
Smithy Hammer
Ruby
Hilt Mold
Celestial Essence
Blessed Dust of Tunare
Mistletoe Temper

Blessed Pommel:
Sheet Metal
Smithy Hammer
Sapphire
Pommel Mold
Celestial Essence
Blessed Dust of Tunare
Mistletoe Temper

Blessed Dust of Tunare:
1 Imbued Emerald
1 Celestial Essence
1 Jar of Acid

For those of you keeping track at home, that's not 1, not 2, but 3 imbued emerald per combine. Sorry, I missed the location of the imbued emerald vendor. Want to hit me with a zone and loc? This being a pure cash route and all...

At some point, I suppose, I'm going to have to put my time where my mouth is and see about getting smithing up. For now though, I have to say it just seems so painful for smiths because it used to be a cash + padding skill. It's painful because it changed and newer smiths got screwed. I'll even acknowledge if you have high enough characters to farm for you, tailoring can be farmed similiarly to smithing. I'll say they may be on the same level now. I still just don't buy that it's noticably harder than tailoring.

How about we say they are DIFFERENTLY a pain in the butt, but EQUIVALENTLY a pain?

Actually smithing CAN'T be farmed the same as tailoring. The only recipie that doesn't require a priest or an enchanter has no drop components (technically, you could get the farmer up in smithing enough to make the orbs, but unlike farmed tradable tailoring components, they don't stack).

I know how bad tailoring used to suck pre-SoL, but you know what? It's easier now - you got your bridge recipie, you got drops added when the bridge drops were too low. Smithing has got shafted since then.

The decrease in tailoring difficulty coupled with the increase in smithing means smithing is now harder. Is smithing harder than tailoring pre-acrylia? No, not really. Is that at all relevant to the current state of affairs? No, not at all. Unless you feel like going back to the days of trivialing wu's then straight velious leather and silk, you have to accept that smithing is now harder. You have your bridge. Our bridges, such as they are, if your race gets them, require a 49 enchanter.

Verant made smithing too hard. Smiths want it fixed, the same way that tailors howled about not having a bridge pre-acrylia, the same way that tailors howled when the acrylia drop rates were too low, and only rock hoppers in DSP dropped the hides you needed for your bridge. What's so hard to understand about that? Are tailors so stuck in the days before Luclin that they can't bear to imagine anyone having a hard time with a tradeskill?

Maybe it's my experiences with the hopper cave in DSP that has made my heart cold to your please about the war in Hollowshade. The war needs to be fixed though, there is some nice stuff that should be dropping!

So, the hopper cave was bad, and the HSM war, despite requiring 2 different no drop components from different factions in the war is not as bad? I'm utterly baffled. Stupid zone wars are bad when tailors have to do them but it's ok for smiths? Expand please.