Raising skill - guild training vs practice

[barahil]

I have a horrid research, but would like to work on it. I have the usual tons of practice points left, but only 30 research skill.

As far as I know, the guild trainer limits you on how much you can train there. My question is HOW he does it. Does he:

A) let you train a total of X # of trains, no matter when you do it. So if you do it at low skill, you'll get to say 150, but then you're done, but if you wait till 120 to start, you'll be able to train up to 200!

or

B) He lets you train to a certain skill level, regardless of when you do it. So if you start from pathetic skill, you'll get to, say, 120, then you're out of luck and you gotta finish up no matter what. Don't waste your time on doing low level research since it won't help you avoid high level research.



Specifics are I'm level 55 with research skill of 30. Should I just go train in guild now, or work research for a while with more common components, then go mass train later?

[Moonlilly]

It all depends on your class. My recomendation if your a wizard, enchanter or necro is to merchant farm the components needed and put some points on doing combines and then head back to the trainer to max it out. If your a mage...Just go to the trainer and burn the points it'll be cheaper on your bank account that way.

[barahil]

I'm an enchanter fyi.

So you are saying that by doing practice with pages early on, I'd be able to use my points to get higher later on? Basically my scenario A?

I didn't know if this was well understood, and didn't find it on any FAQ, but seems an important distinction. It would be a ton of time wasted if I farm components now, raise skill that way, and then go to train and he says I need to learn more in the field. Then what did I do all that farming for, if I still have to work the high end skill?

[Unmei]

You can spend your training points in research at any time. You can buy from zero to 199 and get point 200 by researching KEI, or you can do practice runes to 180 and train the last 20 points, or any permutation you can imagine.

I would suggest getting yourself to a position where if you dump all your points in, you hit 200, and then doing so.

[Moraganth]

hmm.. i posted in another thread.. but, i'd suggest using components to 150 at least.. you'll get a skillup every couple attemts, so it'll be as cheap, or cheaper than spending building points. It starts getting harder to use components after between 162 and 170... components are a bit more difficult to come by, and the skillup rate drops a bit. After 170-180, depending on where you hunt (gathering components as you do), that would be the best time to buy up with build points.

[barahil]

I appreciate all advice. Moraganth, your reply came closest to directly answering my concern, but not quite.

Assuming money isn't an issue (In another thread someone went from 168 to 200 in 2k plat at guild trainer, with it around 5p per attempt at 168. So the lower trainings would be even cheaper, and even less an issue) I'm just trying to find at what point I could start training at the guild, and run it up to 200 with my points. I have near 200 points saved, I think. I only used the required 1 point in the skills that you need to put one in to start, so whatever I have, it's a ton.


Unmei said that whenever you have enough points, you can just dump them in then and get to 200. I'm not sure if that's true, though, since from a friend researching in lower levels, he said that even though he had points left, it wouldn't let him do more, till he leveled, if I remember right. If I'm wrong about that, let me know. (maybe he just didn't HAVE points left? So that meant he had to wait to level to train more, perhaps)

But for me, I have tons of points, so the only issue is "will it let me dump them into research, or stop me eventually"

Thanks again for any help.

[Sylphan]

You can dump points into it at your trainer all the way up to 200.

But remember that there is a level-cap on Research skill. It can't go higher than (level - 15) * 5. So a level 30 enchanter, for instance, can't go higher than 75 skill.

As an enchanter you definitely should combine a few research items to raise skill while your skills are low. Faded pages only cost one silver and some of the faded Salil pages are trivial at around 130 or so. Once your research skill is up to 150 (or sooner if you wish), then go to your trainer and get the last 50 points the easy way.

[barahil]

When you say faded pages cost only 1 silver each, where do you mean that you can buy these?

[Maevenniia]

You can buy components if players sell them to the vendors.

basically, if you want 200 NOW, since you are level 55, your skill cap is:

(515)*5 = 40*5 = 200

... so assuming you have enough points and cash isn't an issue, go ahead and buy your way to 200, you will be able to. And they might nerf this ability to buy points, so go for it if you can!

PS: Your friend was probably lower level so had a lower skill cap.

[barahil]

Ah ok. I thought maybe there was a vendor somewhere that sold them infinitely. Back in the day, I found this vendor in freeport paladin guild that *seemed* to have an infinite supply. but I realized since then , that I was vendor farming, and didn't know it. I just kept buying them, and more would appear if i re-clicked on the vendor.

I'll see what I can find, but then I'll probably guild train with my 197 points I have before they nerf it.

thanks :)

[Eumerin]

As Sylphan said, research is based on the formula (level-15)*5. I've been using the guild trainer to keep my magicians skill up for the last few levels, and you can definitely blow as many training points as you can afford to spend money for.

Research notes -

Enchanters - these guys probably have the easiest job of skilling up. Find a vendor with a faded page that isn't trivial yet, drop it in your container, and hit the combine button. Unless you're in a hurry and cash is no object, there's probably no reason why you would need to worry about visiting a guildmaster to raise this skill. You certainly don't need to worry about the Concordance of Research quests, as the gems that you have to buy will probably cost more than buying a faded page that someone has sold to an NPC vendor (said pages usually only costing one or two gold max). Note that the faded page won't actually produce a spell. It'll only produce a research component (and hopefully a skill-up).
The only drawback to the faded pages is that they don't stack in your inventory. If you buy a stack from a vendor, then they'll end up in your inventory in a stack. But if you loot two of them, they won't stack.

Wizards and Necromancers are fairly similar. Both use a standardized research item (runes for wizards and words for necromancers), drop it in their container, and combine. Early on, they may want to consider the Concordance of Research quests, but they rapidly become more trouble than its worth (buying multiple gems for a single skill up quickly becomes more expensive than buying the skill up from the guild master). The research components are common enough for wizards and necromancers that there will probably be many opportunities to perform combines for spells.

Magician spell research is about as screwed up as it can get. It starts simple enough. You need the words the necromancers don't use for their spells, along with odd, usually elemental based, components (not always the case - the level 16 fire elemental, for example, requires a Halas Heater, of all things. Fortunately, the spell can be purchased from a vendor, as can all magician researched spells through level 20). Up to this point, its pretty similar to wizard and necromancer research. Unfortunately, it gets worse. You ALSO need the prior tier spell that corresponds to the one you're making now. So if you're making the level 24 fire elemental, you also need to include the level 20 fire elemental. It makes sense, but it starts to get very expensive. There's nothing worse than shelling out 20 plat for the prior tier's elemental pet spell, and then failing the combine. And then doing it again. And again.
Most mages skill up using their guild trainer. At level 34 (the level my mage is at), its a lot cheaper than using my researched spells to do so, even if I get a skill up with every attempt (which I don't, of course). Magicians, in short, look at their spell research and wonder just how badly they want the water elemental for this spell tier (most tiers trade off which two elementals are sold on vendors - beats having to successfully combine all of the pets from level 12 on up just to use your level 49 pet spell).

[Moraganth]

Ok, if money is no object, and you simply want it done.. burn the points at the trainer. The only thing that will limit you is the number of points you have, and your level (as research is level capped). If you haven't put any points to it, you should start with the skill at your present level when you drop the first point in, which would make a nice bonus.

Lets face it, at some point those left over build points are of no value. I'm sitting with 95 i think, and can't spend them on anything... everythings capped except the 7 tradeskills /sigh

[Taraddar]

The only drawback to the faded pages is that they don't stack in your inventory. If you buy a stack from a vendor, then they'll end up in your inventory in a stack. But if you loot two of them, they won't stack.


Thats not quite accurate. Looted pages can stack but may not also. Basically there seems to be one type of faded page for each result you can get from unfading them. No way of telling them apart other than they are different id's in the game, which we normally can't see. So if 2 dropped faded pages happen to be the same one of the 5 possible ones they will stack. Otherwise they won't. That's the reason they stack buying them from a vendor because your buying x of the same id pages.

Check lucy at http://lucy.fnord.net/itemlist.html?searchtext=faded to see what i'm talking about.

[EQPlayer]

I was only able to train up to 190 from the Enchanter guildmasters in Neriak. I'm level 61 and have 160 practice points left and had 500pp on me and both said I was more skilled than they are. Is there another Enchanter trainer I can use somewhere that will take me from 190 to 200?

BTW 0 to 190 cost me 2500pp so far with 260 charisma.

Also my first point I trained started me out at 61 skill since I didn't train it when I was level 16. So I would suggest people wait until level 55 to start training it so you'll start with 55 points instead of 16.

[EQPlayer]

I figured I would try freeport and Romiak Jusathorn, the Aviak illusion guildmaster, trained me from 190 to 200. The others inside the building wouldn't. So total cost of 3,150pp from 0 to 200.

[Lilosh]

I would wager that the trainers in PoK probably can go from 190-200 well


-Lilosh

[Moraganth]

i thought i used the one in neriak.. it's been over a year since i did it, so i'm deffinately fuzzy on it. might be that the guildleaders can't go to 200, but the actual guildmaster can....?

[Elfdruidess]

I acutally find skilling up a Mage's research on sub-49 spells is cheaper and easier than Necro and Wizard (I have no experience with Enchanter) *IF* you are only skilling up and don't care what spell you are making.

The route to take is:
Cornucopia / Everfont to lvl 24
Summon Ring of Flight to lvl 39
Conjuration Air to lvl 44
Greater Conjuration Air to lvl 49

Cornucopoia, Everfont and Summon Ring of Flight only take one Word + extremely cheap vendor sold items.

The advantage of using Conjuration Air is because Scent of Marr is vendor sold. You may say, "but Conjuration Air takes a vendor bought spell that costs 16 pp''. But since you can *keep* the Conjuration Airs you made for skilling up on Greater Conjuration Air, the cost can be divided by two.

If you study the vendor sell back price of Words and Runes, you will discover that Mage Words and "Items" cost less than Necro Words and Wizard Runes when you buy from vendor. I think when they determined the vendor sell back price, they took into account Mage research needs a 10 - 20 pp spell, so they reduced the cost of the Words and "Items" accordingly. Therefore if you farm vendors for Mage Words for research, you are buying Words that are cheaper than Wizard's and Necro's.

[Unmei]

i thought i used the one in neriak.. it's been over a year since i did it, so i'm deffinately fuzzy on it. might be that the guildleaders can't go to 200, but the actual guildmaster can....?


I'd buy into that concept - Romiak Jusathorn is the Freeport Enchanter guildmaster that your newbie note tells you to go talk to... I've gone to him for all of my training needs since, and I've never been let down.

Edit: A wizard friend of mine is looking for a guildmaster who can train HER to 200. Anyone know one?

[Lilosh]

I would wager that the trainers in PoK probably can go from 190-200 as well


-Lilosh

[Hibashira]

Regular trainer can only train up to 160. Guildmaster NPC can train up to 200.

Having enough training points to spend: 65 levels + 6 months
Spending on research training: $4k
0-200 in 1 minute: priceless

For everything else, there is pain.

[Meryddian]

Since you're 55, but your research skill is only 30, I'd recommend buying up all the common, lower-level components and doing combines. Save your trainer points till you get over 130, when components become rarer and it takes more combines. (http://eq.crgaming.com/research/Enchanter/)

Research skill goes up pretty quickly; I usually had skillups every 1-4 combines at the lower levels. Even at the higher levels, I've had to do at max 10 combines to get a skillup. No point in wasting money or points on the lower level skill, which like most tradeskills, is pretty cheap to blow through if you stick to the less expensive combines. When I was lower level and wanted to raise my skill, I'd also go to zones like Oasis, Overthere, etc, and offer to combine pages for free - I'd get skillups and lower level players would provide pages/get the spells they needed for free.

My current research - 181, plus 5% helm. :)